Effect of Players Sitting out in Tourneys...

[sam1chips]

This is a topic that actually is of a lot of interest to me.
I absolutely HATE to play with lots of sit-outs. The worst I think are the freerolls on various ipoker sites, where u may have only 3-4 live players at a table. I have a real hard time playing against the super aggressive blind stealers. Whatever strategy I use - it seems I am out before the sit-outs.
Microgaming has it right - just closes them out after the first blind level, I wish all networks were doing that.

Duggs commented that this is an impractical solution, and I agree. I'm not sure what the best solution is, I have a hyptohetical solution that might fix the problem. I realize this probably won't be enacted into tournament play (as i said, only hyptothetical, but...)

Ok so imagine a table..
Seat 1 - Player 1
Seat 2- Player 2
Seat 3 - Player 3
Seat 4 - PLAYER 4 SITTING OUT
Seat 5 - Player 5
Seat 6 - Player 6
Seat 7 - Player 7
Seat 8 - Player 8

Hand 1: Player 1 is on the button, Player 2 SB, Player 3 BB, Player 5 first to act
Hand 2: Player 2 on the button, Player 3 SB, Player 5 BB, {{{Player 4 gets a chip value equal to the BB removed from their stack, and removed from tournament play}}}, Player 6 first to act.
Hand 3: Player 3 on the button, Player 5 SB, Player 6 BB, {{{Player 4 gets a chip value equal to the SB removed from their stack, and removed from tournament play}}}, Player 7 first to act
Hand 4: Player 5 on the button, Player 6 SB, Player 7 BB, Player 8 first to act.
__________
Ultimately, the sitting out player will still be losing their blinds, but instead of the chips going into the pot they will be removed from tournament play.

This scenario would allow the sitting out players to still lose their chips due to the blinds, while nobody would be blind-stealing. Also, the location of the sitting out players would be irrelevant since nobody would be getting the button twice, and (like i said before) there would be no blind stealing from sitting out players.

What does everyone think? Please comment if you think it's good or bad, or if you see flaws in this or something

 

[Ezekiel162]

Only flaw(maybe?) I could see that comes to mind at this point is: What if a person, who is in reality not your "traditional bone-head" sitter, needs to sit out to use bathroom briefly, etc... Wouldn't that mess with the overall status of the tournament's chip value at some point? I've never been too clear on when people say "a chip is worth less because..." I need to read more on that, so please excuse... maybe someone could explain to me if that would matter... :icon_scra honest question...

Or are you just assuming players that have sat out since the start of the game?

 

[vegasjj]

I think it is a real neat solution, and to in part address a short time sit-out situation. The point brought up above I also do not really understand - do not see it having an impact, so to me... you should just submit it to say pokerstars - see what they say..

 

[Ezekiel162]

I think it is a real neat solution, and to in part address a short time sit-out situation. The point brought up above I also do not really understand - do not see it having an impact, so to me... you should just submit it to say Pokerstars - see what they say..

I don't know, maybe i'm confusing chips in tournaments with maybe like how they do rebuys/add-ons and I had thought that chips values... er... I figured if that now instead of adding chips you're subtracting... um...

...forget my post before this, it was prob a silly consideration to begin with...

 

[vegasjj]

As a follow-up thought - and I have not done it - but we should try to think through the effect of such a proposal in the tourneys - of the type I really encounter, where there are at a 10 seater table 2-3-4 live players. This is very normal situation in say Titan weekly depositor games, so I'm not making this-up.
I guess the table will play out as a HU or a "normal" say 4 seat table - but did not really play it out to confirm.

 

[Ezekiel162]

Had to take break and re-read the entire thread and replay OP's scenario w/o complicating things. Actually his suggestion is pretty good. Treats the sitter as if they're not even in the tournament so it has no effect on any of the active players. I would submit this idea if I were y'all...

The only problem then would still be the effect of the sitters still taking up space like I mentioned much earlier in the thread where they stop influx of new player's from reaching the table, that you can double up on(or at the least get more chips from...) This part I've actually experienced... Where I'm stuck at a "dead" table with like 6 sitters while players at other tables have like triple+ our table stacks at that point...

It would lead back to a scenario where somehow a sitter probably should be eliminated (maybe after a certain number of hands or something...) altogether...

 

[sam1chips]

...forget my post before this, it was prob a silly consideration to begin with...

You are right though, that would remove chips from the tournament, and would effect the total chips in the tournament (as well as chip average).

 

[sam1chips]

The only problem then would still be the effect of the sitters still taking up space like I mentioned much earlier in the thread where they stop influx of new player's from reaching the table

Hmm. True, it still wouldn't solve that problem. A dead spot at the table would basically hinder players getting eliminated/switched to the table. Not sure if there is a way around that, if there is I can't think of one off the top of my head...

By the way I appreciate the support with the "proposed solution". It started as hypothetical, but if you guys think its a good idea I could send it in to some sites and see what they think. Might as well, nothing to lose

 

[Ezekiel162]

By the way I appreciate the support with the "proposed solution". It started as hypothetical, but if you guys think its a good idea I could send it in to some sites and see what they think. Might as well, nothing to lose

sam'... don't get me wrong, I think your "hypotheticals" are a really good idea compared how the sites are just letting these "sitters" actually "deadbeats" just... hang around now...

Got a funny one for you... This is how much I hate 'em... I've played a game or two where out of a 9 player game we were down to 4 players. Needed at least to be 3rd to place. 1 dude was a sit... er... deadbeat. The 2 live players had like 3x my stack and me and the sitter were about equally at "death's door". Cool player noticed this and let the other know because he prob felt bad about eliminating a player who had been active since the start of the game. Other player didn't care and bet at me even harder stating something like "...the thrill of the game/competition". I was eliminated and the sitter placed...

After this I turned green, ripped the door off the hinges, and lumbered around saying "Bah! Ezekiel Smash!!" all day...

I didn't mind losing as much as I minded being beaten by an "empty seat"...

This thread I think will generate some more ideas(good/bad) for your solution. So Stick with it, because nothing I, or anyone else for that matter, stated earlier should deter you from this...

 

[sam1chips]

As a follow-up thought - and I have not done it - but we should try to think through the effect of such a proposal in the tourneys - of the type I really encounter, where there are at a 10 seater table 2-3-4 live players. This is very normal situation in say Titan weekly depositor games, so I'm not making this-up.
I guess the table will play out as a HU or a "normal" say 4 seat table - but did not really play it out to confirm.

Haha i have been in tourneys like that as well, with 2, 3 , 4 people actually there, everybody else just sitting out...
Let's think...i would think it would play out like a regular 4 seat table. But also think about this...
When the dealer button goes around the table for a full revolution, each person has paid a big blind and a small blind. This is still the case in the proposed solution (however, the chips of absent players are not being redistributed to other players, they are just being removed from the table)...

So at a regular 10 person table, it takes 10 hands for the button to go around, and have everybody put in a big blind and a small blind. But if there is only 4 live players, it will only take 4 hands for the dealer button to go all the way around, and only 4 hands for ALL TEN PLAYERS to lose a big blind and a small blind (the active players putting them into the pot, the absent players getting them removed from tournament play).

So these 6 absent players would be eliminated relatively quickly, since they are losing their chips at a higher rate than the other absent players (like a table with 9 active players and only one person sitting out).
I guess this would mean that the people sitting out wouldn't all be eliminated at the same time. I'm not sure what the effect of this is, can you think of anything?

 

[sam1chips]

that is tough ezekial. I have been in similar scenarios, I'm sure other CCers have been as well. That's a real tough break though.
How about this scenario (Happened to me a couple times)...
10 person sit and go, top 3 place. Everybody starts with 1500 chips. Gets down to 4 people, one of whom has been absent for the entire game. The blinds are getting pretty high, and the person sitting out is down to 400 chips are so. The next hand you get deal a semi-marginal but not dominate hand, like jacks or queens or AQ or something. Even though you probably have the best hand (especially 4 handed) I don't wanna get into a scenario where I'm risking all my chips and potentially get knocked out when all I have to do is wait 5 or 10 hands for the sitter to lose all his chips! Folding queens to a 3-bet preflop with the idea of survival, very aggrevating

 

[Ezekiel162]

Haha i have been in tourneys like that as well, with 2, 3 , 4 people actually there, everybody else just sitting out...
Let's think...i would think it would play out like a regular 4 seat table. But also think about this...
When the dealer button goes around the table for a full revolution, each person has paid a big blind and a small blind. This is still the case in the proposed solution (however, the chips of absent players are not being redistributed to other players, they are just being removed from the table)...

So at a regular 10 person table, it takes 10 hands for the button to go around, and have everybody put in a big blind and a small blind. But if there is only 4 live players, it will only take 4 hands for the dealer button to go all the way around, and only 4 hands for ALL TEN PLAYERS to lose a big blind and a small blind (the active players putting them into the pot, the absent players getting them removed from tournament play).

So these 6 absent players would be eliminated relatively quickly, since they are losing their chips at a higher rate than the other absent players (like a table with 9 active players and only one person sitting out).
I guess this would mean that the people sitting out wouldn't all be eliminated at the same time. I'm not sure what the effect of this is, can you think of anything?

Y'know to tell you the truth I absent-mindedly hadn't considered the fact that with more sitters the faster the rotation of blinds... foolish of me... I don't think that anything would change aside from the fact of where the moneys being distributed, not to the table in scenario obviously but maybe the player dynamics would change. I mean, when the player's were fighting for the blinds, the table would tend to be more loose I guess but if the blinds are being taken from the table then i'm guessing people would be playing normally(tighter anyway)... something to consider I guess. It may have been mentioned earlier in thread... Some other members will prob comment on this later...

 

[Ezekiel162]

that is tough ezekial. I have been in similar scenarios, I'm sure other CCers have been as well. That's a real tough break though.
How about this scenario (Happened to me a couple times)...
10 person sit and go, top 3 place. Everybody starts with 1500 chips. Gets down to 4 people, one of whom has been absent for the entire game. The blinds are getting pretty high, and the person sitting out is down to 400 chips are so. The next hand you get deal a semi-marginal but not dominate hand, like jacks or queens or AQ or something. Even though you probably have the best hand (especially 4 handed) I don't wanna get into a scenario where I'm risking all my chips and potentially get knocked out when all I have to do is wait 5 or 10 hands for the sitter to lose all his chips! Folding queens to a 3-bet preflop with the idea of survival, very aggrevating

LOL... yep, been through this situation too... Your right that this is really aggravating because it makes you scared to risk making major decisions with fairly good hands...

 

[Ezekiel162]

How about this one? You ever try to isolate a player after a while knowing the hand ranges they'll play. So you force an AI knowing you have the isolated player crushed and right at that moment... here comes the "sitter"... out of hiding and gets involved unexpected (because you weren't even even considering tha clown... because he was sitting most of the game and I don't mean like ultra-tight/frank "nitty" fashion either...) and messes up your play?... lmao... Don't know if this one counts(prob not...) but I'm just throwing some scenarios at'cha to give you more to think of...

 

[Chemist]

How about this one? You ever try to isolate a player after a while knowing the hand ranges they'll play. So you force an AI knowing you have the isolated player crushed and right at that moment... here comes the "sitter"... out of hiding and gets involved unexpected (because you weren't even even considering tha clown... because he was sitting most of the game and I don't mean like ultra-tight/frank "nitty" fashion either...) and messes up your play?... lmao... Don't know if this one counts(prob not...) but I'm just throwing some scenarios at'cha to give you more to think of...

Yes been there,
Still have sitting out label on their avatar and suddenly they are in th pot.
And you think why can't online sites be more like standard tourny where the cards are dead if not seated when the last hole card is dealt. Instead of making you play with this misinformation.

 

[Ezekiel162]

Yes been there,
Still have sitting out label on their avatar and suddenly they are in th pot.
And you think why can't online sites be more like standard tourny where the cards are dead if not seated when the last hole card is dealt. Instead of making you play with this misinformation.

Excellent point Chem'. I like the direction you're headed with this. Maybe it'll give OP some fresh ideas to work with...

 

[sam1chips]

Figured I'd show you guys this...
Just sat down at the intertops freeroll. Take a look at my table position! I am UTG for 8 striaght hands. Not to mention james_herald will be able to steal dead blinds 8 times in a row as well. Hopefully some people in the middle show up, between the time I took the screenshot to me writing this post, james herald is already up to 1980 chips!
Your position in related to the people sitting out is huge.

 

[danprince10]

sam'... don't get me wrong, I think your "hypotheticals" are a really good idea compared how the sites are just letting these "sitters" actually "deadbeats" just... hang around now...

Got a funny one for you... This is how much I hate 'em... I've played a game or two where out of a 9 player game we were down to 4 players. Needed at least to be 3rd to place. 1 dude was a sit... er... deadbeat. The 2 live players had like 3x my stack and me and the sitter were about equally at "death's door". Cool player noticed this and let the other know because he prob felt bad about eliminating a player who had been active since the start of the game. Other player didn't care and bet at me even harder stating something like "...the thrill of the game/competition". I was eliminated and the sitter placed...

After this I turned green, ripped the door off the hinges, and lumbered around saying "Bah! Ezekiel Smash!!" all day...

I didn't mind losing as much as I minded being beaten by an "empty seat"...

This thread I think will generate some more ideas(good/bad) for your solution. So Stick with it, because nothing I, or anyone else for that matter, stated earlier should deter you from this...

Funny little counter situation to this. I'm playing a STT DON sng and theres four people left, Im a substantial chip leader close to like 70-75% of the chips in play well say I have 10k, one guy has 4k, another guy has 1.7k, and theres a guy sitting out with 850 chips. (this is 6 max obvy)

THIS IS ON A SITE WHERE IT SAYS WHICH PEOPLE ARE SITTING OUT KEEP IN MIND. not like merge where you have to pay attn. The hand before the guy with 1.5k shoved when I was sb and I folded like kq because I was thinking were just going to get the sitter out, as soon as I folded I immediatly start thinking F that, if this guy is going to play like a moron i'm calling any 2 next time he does that. (knowing theres no way I can lose at this point)

Very next hand he shoved into my bb when hes UTG I call with like 74off he has like A10 I flop a 7 and it holds hahaha. Hopefully he learned his lesson. Guy sitting out gets a free 3 or 5 dollars or whatever it was. No reason for that monkey to be shoving a10 when we could just wait for the guy with no chips to get blinded out with only like 2 more rotations. Just thought that would be a funny story to go along with this topic lol.

 

[sam1chips]

Funny little counter situation to this.

Haha, very funny situation. All the third place stack needed to do was fold pre-flop every hand in order to get ITM (as long as the sitter doesn't show up), and they decide that NOW is the best time to assert table dominance. wow...

Funny move on your part as well. You obviously had a substantial amount of chips, and still would be in great shape (slash able to fold pre-flop every hand and still make the money). My only comment I have is...I am fine with you making that move as long as you convince yourself before the move, "Okay, if he doubles up on me, then I won't do anything stupid, or fold preflop everyhand to get ITM." You obviously had enough chips to play with, as long as you have the discipline to know when to stop.

Don't get me wrong, I'm sure you would've. Everyone on this forum is smart I'm sure all the CCers would've been smart. But I've seen players (mostly in MTT I guess) that will be in the top 10% of the leaderboard, then go on tilt and 5 minutes later be eliminated after pushing all in with A7 or something.

 

[TEG2300]

Does anyone think that this occurs more on "skins" I.E. Merge gaming where some one can have a bunch of separate accounts with different "sites" and still be registering for the same tournament?
I have wondered about whether or not that is with in the rules. It does not seem like a multi-user issue as you cannot run two merge skins at the same time but still ......I dunno smells funny.

 

[danprince10]

Haha, very funny situation. All the third place stack needed to do was fold pre-flop every hand in order to get ITM (as long as the sitter doesn't show up), and they decide that NOW is the best time to assert table dominance. wow...

Funny move on your part as well. You obviously had a substantial amount of chips, and still would be in great shape (slash able to fold pre-flop every hand and still make the money). My only comment I have is...I am fine with you making that move as long as you convince yourself before the move, "Okay, if he doubles up on me, then I won't do anything stupid, or fold preflop everyhand to get ITM." You obviously had enough chips to play with, as long as you have the discipline to know when to stop.

Don't get me wrong, I'm sure you would've. Everyone on this forum is smart I'm sure all the CCers would've been smart. But I've seen players (mostly in MTT I guess) that will be in the top 10% of the leaderboard, then go on tilt and 5 minutes later be eliminated after pushing all in with A7 or something.

Yeah haha you def gotta be smart/careful trying to be a wiseguy when moneys on the line. I knew even if he doubled through me I would just be folding every hand as the sitter would be blinded out in ~8 hands and I would still be chip leader. Definitely good point to make though don't wanna people who are just learning to go crazy in spots like that lol.

 

[Ezekiel162]

Figured I'd show you guys this...
Just sat down at the intertops freeroll. Take a look at my table position! I am UTG for 8 striaght hands. Not to mention james_herald will be able to steal dead blinds 8 times in a row as well. Hopefully some people in the middle show up, between the time I took the screenshot to me writing this post, james herald is already up to 1980 chips!
Your position in related to the people sitting out is huge.

This is a incredible example of why a solution needs to found to the "sitter" problem... +1 Sam...

 

[Chemist]

Sam1chips in your situation James only has the advantage if you fold to him.
If you raise from your UTG position it will be harder for him to call with rag hands. Then He will get frustrated with his position, never being able to play.
If you do it consistently then the frustration will lead to him or makwa eventually playing back light giving you the opportunity to get action on your good hands.
This was referred to earlier in the thread talking about adjusting play to the situation. You are effectively 3 handed and should play it like that or perhaps even like HU.
Imagine yourself sitting in James' seat with someone raising from an earlier position all the time and stealing those blinds. It wouldn't feel like such a good seat then.

 

[fkucdaw0rld]

it all depends on exactly how many people are sitting out at my table...if theres only like up to 3 or 4 sitouts then i love it, just dead money and its fairly easy to play aggro against the 5 or so people actually there...i've been in situations where there were only 2 or 3 ppl at the table playing, and that becomes a pain...its not too complicated to play aggro but, especially in turbo tournies, the blinds start going up and if you dont get moved to a new table you're gonna b fukked once your table finally gets blinded out....if you're lucky you can manage to double up once or twice against the other person playing and whoever takes his seat, but if not you're screwed once u get to a table and the blinds are insane and u've only got like 20 or so after however long..

 

[long_bong]

Usually when there is only 3 active players and everyone else sitting out, it is good strategy to chat with the sit iners and decided a fold every hand simotaniously and everyone equally gets a fair share until sitouts are gone.

Then poker begins. For freerolls obviously you only see this happen. So cannot really complain about it can you?