My current MTT strategy

medeiros13

medeiros13

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You've discovered the main difference. It sounds that you are playing a standard tight aggressive game which doesn't work at these.

The shoving is entirely different between a STT and a MTT. I can't stress that enough. The 45 aren't even a proper MTT either, the 180s are even more insane, due to 10% being payed and that they don't go particularly longer than the 45.

Please take no offense to this, but I'd imagine that you're one of the nits that I abuse the hell out of in these games. In many spots you've got to push ATC; this is assuming you're playing the turbo variant though.

To be profitable in these games you really need to rework your whole push/fold game. I recommend either talking to Poker Orifice about this(he plays the 45 SnG) buy a series called "Jonathan Little's Secrets," goes in good detail about how to play these games, I think it's fantastic, or spend at least 5 hours going over basically every hand in the late game via SnG Wiz. You've got to change the payout structure for SnG Wiz. Make sure it's not set up for the STT. Remember, every thing you have previously learnt with SnG Wiz goes out of the window; none of it applies and if you use it, you are pushing way to tight/blinding out, which is the worst mistake one can make in these games. If none of this sounds good I could send you a HH of me playing one of these but I still have a ton to learn playing these games; I sometimes suspect I'm pushing too loose but then I tighten up and all hell breaks loose. I could sweat a game and tell you when I'd push and why, allowing you to gain some insight of loose pushing spots but let's you decide if they're +EV or not

I appreciate the honest feedback. I probably do need to push a little sooner than I am...the issue I'm having is others are taking the aggression by shoving before me taking away my initiative bonus of shoving first. I'm pretty aware of someone pushing me around with crazy raising and I can honestly say I haven't seen that yet. I suspect this is a learning curve that I need to figure out. I'm doing something right by getting to a final table. I'll check out the series you mentioned above
 
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pat3392

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I appreciate the honest feedback. I probably do need to push a little sooner than I am...the issue I'm having is others are taking the aggression by shoving before me taking away my initiative bonus of shoving first. I'm pretty aware of someone pushing me around with crazy raising and I can honestly say I haven't seen that yet. I suspect this is a learning curve that I need to figure out. I'm doing something right by getting to a final table. I'll check out the series you mentioned above

Sounds like you've got a tough game. Most of the time I'm up against nits who are waiting for that big hand to bust the maniac(me) but by the time they get there big hand I've stole enough blinds to free roll with there monster.

If it's folded to you and you have 3 M, I think you really need to push ATC, even 72o UTG. Hell. I push ATC at 4 M, which seems to work a lot better than 3M. I play the turbos though so it's different.

This is of course assuming that you're not at the final table, it all goes out of the window then. The final table is basically a STT with 2 bubbles, one at 7th an one at 3rd.

Whenever I get to the final table with a short stack it is incredibly hard to do well. It's simply extremely tricky. I find that people seem to feel very accomplished when they reach the final table, it's sort of like a bubble in their minds; instead of being awarded money they are rewarded a ego boost. If they let me, I abuse the hell out of this imaginary bubble. 3M, defintely ATC, hell 4 M aswell unless people may spike call/are short. The thing is it's not that bad when there's a caller because of all the dead chips. At 5 M I fold 10%, push the rest late, and push only decentish cards mid position(suited connectors/gappers, pair, A-rag, broadways, 2 medium cards, more if there's nits)

At 6 M it's getting a bit much but I still push a fair bit. One must do this to survive the turbos though. I find whenever I push even wider than this I seem to do better. If it works you get to the final table with so many chips that you can take massive +cEV plays without the fear of busting, something that the shorites can't do.

You can also shove over limpers when at the 10BB mark, it works surprisingly well. Oh and if folded to and you have 10 BB in the SB, push ATC. Supringly very +EV play. Not sure if you've read No Limit Hold'em Theory and Practice, particularly the part about SC. Basically, if you have A2o and in the SB when folded to, you can show your opponent that you have A2o(flip it over and show him) you can still push this for 44BB for a +cEV. It's bit of an eye-opener how much one can shove here.

Oh and if someone raises late and you suspect it's a steal, you have about 5-9 times his raise and he's not committed to the hand, you can shove him with any reasonable competent hand(67o) for a fairly big +cEV.

There's lots of places on the flop where you can take cheap stabs at. If you're not sure when to steal on the flop try playing a bunch of HU games, they really help with post-flop steal plays.

"I'm doing something right by getting to a final table."
This is bad logic. I may get to the final table half the time compared to you and consequently get ITM 1/2 less but when I do get ITM, I seem to come first more than any other position.

I just checked out my PT stats for these games.
300 sessions, ITM 18, came between 1 5% 2-3 5% of the time, 4-7 10% and bubbled 5%
Being aggressive makes it more likely to bust around the 18-27 mark but when it works it really works. Kind of like the best players at STT bust the most around the 6 person mark, since that's when they are going to accumulate chips. They don't bubble very often because they have chips, and they use this to ride their way to 1st a decent % of the time


I'm not sure if most of this is obvious or something just I wished someone told me all this when I first started playing these things. It kind of is ridiculous how much fold equity a lot of these plays have; the funny thing is even if my 57o is called by a strong range I still have 30% equity
 
medeiros13

medeiros13

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Just finished 3rd for my first 45 man cash. I really had a shot at winning the thing but things didn't fall my way. I'm starting to sense when I need to be aggressive now and that's resulting in some early knockouts but is also giving me the chance of chipping up and being a force.

I am noticing that this experiment is starting to negatively impact my SNG game. I am way too aggressive, way too early in the 9 mans and its putting me behind the eight ball. I came back after a break earlier tonight, got my hands around this, and got a cash in the 9 man SNG as well...but its something I need to watch going forward.

Now, I'm trying to figure out how I can apply some of this new found aggression (due to the MTT format) and use it to my advantage. My initial thoughts are to play more connecters and gappers in midgame if I can get in cheap...but I need to actually DO this. The other thing that I'm learning is to be more aggressive with small pp's near the bubble. I used to limp and pray that the flop hit me...now I'm raising and following up with C bets are full pot bets to try and take it down after the flop.

My last observation is that I'm starting to appreciate how hard it is to avoid landmines in MTT's. One example in the MTT I just finished 3rd in...I got a BB special of 84 suited with 2 callers...flop comes 4 4 10 with 2 clubs...I bet pot...get 2 callers....turn gives the 3rd club....i check...big bet...big reraise...I get out of dodge.....the winning hand was trip 4's with an ace kicker. If the 3rd club doesn't hit, I probably get knocked out right then and there.
 
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pat3392

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Just finished 3rd for my first 45 man cash. I really had a shot at winning the thing but things didn't fall my way. I'm starting to sense when I need to be aggressive now and that's resulting in some early knockouts but is also giving me the chance of chipping up and being a force.

I am noticing that this experiment is starting to negatively impact my SNG game. I am way too aggressive, way too early in the 9 mans and its putting me behind the eight ball. I came back after a break earlier tonight, got my hands around this, and got a cash in the 9 man SNG as well...but its something I need to watch going forward.

Now, I'm trying to figure out how I can apply some of this new found aggression (due to the MTT format) and use it to my advantage. My initial thoughts are to play more connecters and gappers in midgame if I can get in cheap...but I need to actually DO this. The other thing that I'm learning is to be more aggressive with small pp's near the bubble. I used to limp and pray that the flop hit me...now I'm raising and following up with C bets are full pot bets to try and take it down after the flop.

My last observation is that I'm starting to appreciate how hard it is to avoid landmines in MTT's. One example in the MTT I just finished 3rd in...I got a BB special of 84 suited with 2 callers...flop comes 4 4 10 with 2 clubs...I bet pot...get 2 callers....turn gives the 3rd club....i check...big bet...big reraise...I get out of dodge.....the winning hand was trip 4's with an ace kicker. If the 3rd club doesn't hit, I probably get knocked out right then and there.

Yeah I thought it might. That's why when you sit own you gotta kind of go over how you're going to play this session, so that you don't get confused with the subtle differences.

I'm not sure what stacks sizes you get at those stages but I'm basically always pushing PP even before the bubble. They are a monster really. But at the bubble in the turbos an absolute monster chip stack is 10 M, the average 2-4.

Yeah raising PP is usually a good idea when short, limping is pretty terrible when 15BB or under imho.

Pot sized c-bets? That is simply spew. A 3/4 pot bet would accomplish the same thing. Hell, a 1/2 pot bet would accomplish the same thing.
 
medeiros13

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Pot sized c-bets? That is simply spew. A 3/4 pot bet would accomplish the same thing. Hell, a 1/2 pot bet would accomplish the same thing.

LOL, I was tired when I typed this. That should've read a CBet OR a pot sized bet. I don't disagree with you about 3/4 or 1/2 pot bets accomplishing the same thing against GOOD players but there are a ton that like to chase and I've found that pot sized bets get them off their hands....worst case, they'll call the flop, chase the turn and then fold to another bet after if they miss. As always with poker, it depends on the player involved, chips stacks, and what their draw is
 
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If your in mtts to win and win big then you going to need to get lucky, need to call when you think your ahead but dont want risk it, need to call a guys all in when your holding small pair and win a coin flip etc etc. You need a lot of luck to win but if get in these situations and win you can get a huge stack then go back to your tight aggresive play. You cant be aggresive with a short stack but you can with a big 1. well you can short stacked but if you get reraised are you pot commited? Need to adjust to thinking if i take these risks and lose 2 out of 3 but if i win a quadruple up etc. Best to quadruple up in 1 mtt rather than have small stack in 3. if you wnat go on and win big i mean. If only in it to pick up small prize then go ahead and play tight take no risks.
 
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pat3392

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LOL, I was tired when I typed this. That should've read a CBet OR a pot sized bet. I don't disagree with you about 3/4 or 1/2 pot bets accomplishing the same thing against GOOD players but there are a ton that like to chase and I've found that pot sized bets get them off their hands....worst case, they'll call the flop, chase the turn and then fold to another bet after if they miss. As always with poker, it depends on the player involved, chips stacks, and what their draw is

I'm not sure if this is optimal, but if I put my opponent on a draw I've been betting smallish amounts, not enough to give them expressed odds but enough to make them think they have implied odds. Then if the draw hits the river I lock up and fold to any bet, then if it misses I do a smallish 1/2 pot bet and take it down; not sure if the bet on the river is good, since my A/K high is most likely the best hand but I don't want to ruin my tight image by showing that; let them think I'm playing good cards and they'll be happy and passive, don't want them playing back at me. Something I was doing tonight at the casino; it works better live because one can pick up on body language to help determine what hand they have. It worked really well.

What I'm getting at, forcing out the draws isn't necessarily good. I find it harder to do online because I'm not as good reading online but it's something to think about anyway

need to call a guys all in when your holding small pair and win a coin flip etc etc.Umm that's bad logic.... It's not about getting lucky, it's about maximizing EV. In STT it's mostly $EV so nitty play is optimal but in a MTT it's mostly cEV, so more aggressive play is better but that still doesn't say you can call an all-in hoping for a coin flip!! You cant be aggresive with a short stack but you can with a big 1 *face palm* you got it the wrong way around, unless you're talking about bubble situations... He's not playing proper MTT anyway, they pay 22% in the 45 not 10%
 
medeiros13

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I'm not sure if this is optimal, but if I put my opponent on a draw I've been betting smallish amounts, not enough to give them expressed odds but enough to make them think they have implied odds. Then if the draw hits the river I lock up and fold to any bet, then if it misses I do a smallish 1/2 pot bet and take it down; not sure if the bet on the river is good, since my A/K high is most likely the best hand but I don't want to ruin my tight image by showing that; let them think I'm playing good cards and they'll be happy and passive, don't want them playing back at me. Something I was doing tonight at the casino; it works better live because one can pick up on body language to help determine what hand they have. It worked really well.

What I'm getting at, forcing out the draws isn't necessarily good. I find it harder to do online because I'm not as good reading online but it's something to think about anyway

I really understand where you're coming from and I can't argue your logic. I haven't played much live so I don't know if its the same or different as far as maniac play but it certainly is at the online limits I play at. Experience has taught me that a full pot bet is the best way to get some folds and get some to come along too. The really extreme players donk bet anytime there's two suits on the flop because they're scared to death of a flush. These players help me get calls on my full pot bets. Having said that, the majority of your advice in my thread has been on point so I'll keep those tips stored away :)
 
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pat3392

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I really understand where you're coming from and I can't argue your logic. I haven't played much live so I don't know if its the same or different as far as maniac play but it certainly is at the online limits I play at. Experience has taught me that a full pot bet is the best way to get some folds and get some to come along too. The really extreme players donk bet anytime there's two suits on the flop because they're scared to death of a flush. These players help me get calls on my full pot bets. Having said that, the majority of your advice in my thread has been on point so I'll keep those tips stored away :)

Hmm I basically never do pot sized bets as I've always thought they scream strength and get too many folds but this is coming from the same person who used to think raising 5BB pre was just soo much and would scare of action. I'll try some pot sized bets tomorrow, see what happens.

If you play different opponents than I than perhaps your method is optimal. I play low stakes online though so I don't think there would be that much of a difference, currently playing the $3.25 45 SnG. However, I basically never limp so I don't usually have many opponents in the same hand with me as I raise fairly big pre; the strength shown pre makes a smaller c-bet work fairly well. That being said, I think with the turbos one must preserve there stack a bit more, since a lot of equity comes from push/fold. Still, limping is pretty bad. So is raising small pre when you'll get a ton of callers. I could be completely wrong; perhaps you've found a really juicy game?

EDIT: oh and the difference in live; it's incredibely clear whether how an opponent is playing; one can stereotype them from their dress, listen to what they say, see how they behave, so much information. People tend to play real passive live though; they don't want to look bad doing some maniacal plays I guess. Or maybe it's they can't simply reload another game? Fish galore! Casino games are so soft, the $1/$2 at the casino seems softer than $.01/$.02 online at pokerstars
 
medeiros13

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Update: Just won a 45 man!!!! On to the 90 man MTT! Also found my range today and cashed in some 9 man SNG's while making my run. I'm very excited and will post more when I enter the 90 man tournaments.
 
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Update: Just won a 45 man!!!! On to the 90 man MTT! Also found my range today and cashed in some 9 man SNG's while making my run. I'm very excited and will post more when I enter the 90 man tournaments.

Let me know if there's much difference between the 45 and 90.

By the way, my last post was a tad bit dodgy. I was fairly tired when I wrote it and I realised that it was pretty bad when in bed =/ If you're doing pot size bets and still getting callers and a bet on the turn picks it up then that's a very +EV play
 
medeiros13

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I have only played one 90 man SNG so far and I finished in the middle of the pack. I have nobody to blame but myself for the finish. I was in the top 10% of chip leaders when I faced off with another big stack at my table. I raised with KJo in mid position (table was pretty weak...not a play I normally make) and got a small reraise from the other big stack. I called...and correctly put him on AQ. Flop came 9 J Q with two clubs. I bet out pot, he called. Turn was a dud....I bet pot again, he calls again. River was a 3rd club, I threw a vaue bet at the pot....trying to represent a flush. The villan makes an impressive call and I never recovered. This is one of those instances where you question firing the 3rd bullet on the semibluff but I've found that this play works more times than not. Perhaps those 1/2 pot bets versus my full sized pot bets would've been appropriate since I was up against a big stack but that's all hindsight now.

Based on this one game, what I found is that people were a little tighter than the 45 man. This could've been the players or the format...time will tell. The overall competition level looked better but again...time will tell this too.
 
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cubixguy77

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If you make the full size bet, that can make the difference in whether or not the opponent folds a weak top pair on the flop, or a weak draw. ordinarily i'd go with continuation bets of 1/2 the pot, but against loose players you have to tack on a little more. At low limits, they tend to be pretty loose, but you say they're tightening up a little bit in the 90 mans?
 
medeiros13

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The two games I've been in, players have been pretty tight. I just registered in one right now so we shall see.

Since this has sort of become a blog for me, I guess I'll post this here. Lately, I have lost my touch for 9 man SNG's (which is my bread and butter money maker) Some of it is due to variance and bad beats but my play is also a factor. I've bubbled a lot of SNG's lately and I'm putting pressure on myself to finish the job so to speak. Unfortunately, I think this MTT experiment has been a factor in my 9 man SNG hiccup. My reads have been WAY off and my decision making has been poor at best; in short, my confidence level is down. This is a bad time for this since I had just increased my BR enough to move up to the $3 SNG's but this run has forced me to retreat back down again. It annoys me because I know the play isn't BEYOND me by any means....I'm just making poor decisions that are costing me cashes. The good news is that in the past, I'd try to push through and really impact my BR...so I've learned something from my past mistakes. I'd appreciate any feedback if this type of thing has happened to others...sometimes it makes us feel better to know that others have gone through the same thing. In the meantime, back to the tables I go to try and push through this bad spot and improve as a player.
 
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I guess I'm doing okay now...I just won the 90 man MTT! I never used to like blogging but there is something to be said for doing it. I reread my post above after I made it and really focused on staying patient and making good plays. I think it's so easy to get frustrated but the key is to study your game and habits so you can improve. Now its off to the 180 man MTT :)

PS- For the questions about how tight/loose the 90 mans are...I found the play to be pretty good. You have the typical "how do you call that" type of stuff but overall....pretty solid. Out of the final table, there was only one donk and he finished 4th. He stood out because he was the only player who only shoved/folded and didn't want to play poker.
 
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Congrats!
As you probably have noticed by now the 9-man STT's have some similarities and some differences with multi table SnG's.
Maybe thats why you have started bubbling in the 9-man SnG's.
I find that in STT's you need to fold a lot to any sign of any potential strengh in opponents hand.
 
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The two games I've been in, players have been pretty tight. I just registered in one right now so we shall see.

Since this has sort of become a blog for me, I guess I'll post this here. Lately, I have lost my touch for 9 man SNG's (which is my bread and butter money maker) Some of it is due to variance and bad beats but my play is also a factor. I've bubbled a lot of SNG's lately and I'm putting pressure on myself to finish the job so to speak. Unfortunately, I think this MTT experiment has been a factor in my 9 man SNG hiccup. My reads have been WAY off and my decision making has been poor at best; in short, my confidence level is down. This is a bad time for this since I had just increased my BR enough to move up to the $3 SNG's but this run has forced me to retreat back down again. It annoys me because I know the play isn't BEYOND me by any means....I'm just making poor decisions that are costing me cashes. The good news is that in the past, I'd try to push through and really impact my BR...so I've learned something from my past mistakes. I'd appreciate any feedback if this type of thing has happened to others...sometimes it makes us feel better to know that others have gone through the same thing. In the meantime, back to the tables I go to try and push through this bad spot and improve as a player.

A very similar thing happened to me when I moved to STT from MTT; lucky that you are wise enough to notice you are playing bad; I thought that it was variance and lost 70% of my hard earned bank roll because of it. Bubble play in STT/MTT has completely different principals and I got confused by the 2, which sounds like what's happening to you; you know it's a bad move afterwards but you were on auto-pilot whilst playing, and you're auto-pilot is trained for MTT atm.
I guess I'm doing okay now...I just won the 90 man MTT! I never used to like blogging but there is something to be said for doing it. I reread my post above after I made it and really focused on staying patient and making good plays. I think it's so easy to get frustrated but the key is to study your game and habits so you can improve. Now its off to the 180 man MTT :)

PS- For the questions about how tight/loose the 90 mans are...I found the play to be pretty good. You have the typical "how do you call that" type of stuff but overall....pretty solid. Out of the final table, there was only one donk and he finished 4th. He stood out because he was the only player who only shoved/folded and didn't want to play poker.

The only who shoved/folded? Sounds like the only competent player.... For how many M was he shoving?

Oh no not the 180! They are entirely different again... STT pays 33%, 18/45/90 pays about 22% whilst the 180 is a "true" MTT, it pays 10%. I'd recommended not giving these a try... The variance in those are absolutely horrendous. You'll probably go through 120 BI easily till you win one and by that time you're game will change so much it's going to be difficult going back to STT. Super aggression is the key. You have to shove a ton. There's antes, someone likes to limp more than once a orbit and you have 10 BB with 57o and in good position, you have to shove.... You're burning money not doing so. Basically any player who is willing to fold to a shove MUST be abused and that's literally 95% of the field... Good luck!!

Congrats!
As you probably have noticed by now the 9-man STT's have some similarities and some differences with multi table SnG's.
Maybe thats why you have started bubbling in the 9-man SnG's.
I find that in STT's you need to fold a lot to any sign of any potential strengh in opponents hand.

I think with STT optimal strategy is based around not bubbling, since it's easy to fold to the bubble and even easier to bust whilst near it, whereas with MTT optimal strategy is to get enough chips so that one can abuse the bubble without risk of busting himself
 
medeiros13

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The only who shoved/folded? Sounds like the only competent player.... For how many M was he shoving?

Oh no not the 180! They are entirely different again... STT pays 33%, 18/45/90 pays about 22% whilst the 180 is a "true" MTT, it pays 10%. I'd recommended not giving these a try... The variance in those are absolutely horrendous. You'll probably go through 120 BI easily till you win one and by that time you're game will change so much it's going to be difficult going back to STT. Super aggression is the key. You have to shove a ton. There's antes, someone likes to limp more than once a orbit and you have 10 BB with 57o and in good position, you have to shove.... You're burning money not doing so. Basically any player who is willing to fold to a shove MUST be abused and that's literally 95% of the field... Good luck!!

The player I speak of had a high enough M to not be shoving. (I believe he was 20-25 most of the final table which was the same as most of us) He discovered at the final table that he couldn't hang with us playing straight poker. (trust me, I was there ;) ) I'm all for people shoving between an M of 10 to 15; I get it because I do it and believe in it...that's not what was happening.

I'll keep your advice in mind for the 180 man. With the amount of time it'll take, I really don't know how much I'll be able to play anyway. I also joined the CC league this year so that will further cut into my poker time. However, I'm hopeful that playing a 9 man SNG against the good players at this site will help me improve even more than I have during this little experiment :)
 
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pat3392

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The player I speak of had a high enough M to not be shoving. (I believe he was 20-25 most of the final table which was the same as most of us) He discovered at the final table that he couldn't hang with us playing straight poker. (trust me, I was there ;) ) I'm all for people shoving between an M of 10 to 15; I get it because I do it and believe in it...that's not what was happening.

I'll keep your advice in mind for the 180 man. With the amount of time it'll take, I really don't know how much I'll be able to play anyway. I also joined the CC league this year so that will further cut into my poker time. However, I'm hopeful that playing a 9 man SNG against the good players at this site will help me improve even more than I have during this little experiment :)

Shoving between an M of 10-15? If that's open shove then that's definitely a leak... Someone was shoving 20-25 M? Wow huge donkey, easy money. I didn't realise the non-turbo variants were so deep, most of the advice I've given has been geared at real short stack, 1-10M

The CC league? I may play that one too, might see you their!


EDIT: If you guys are playing so deep I'd recommend not risking so much from shoving. Aggression is still crucial but I find that the average player likes to call a normal too much at the low stakes, but folds way too much to a shove. Still, over shoving is a leak. I guess try raising instead but the risk/reward may not be there. Idk, you probably have a better idea then me.
 
medeiros13

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To be a little clearer, the shoving between an M of 10-15 depends on the other stacks around me. There are cases where that M level has me in serious danger based on the other stacks around me. On the other hand, there are plenty of situations where that M allows me to play poker...just a little tighter :) Its hard to give details when you are making posts like this but understand your concern about that being a potential leak.

As far as the CC league, it is already full for this season. I'm assuming that there will be a winter league in early 2011. I believe the posts for it are made in the CC real cash game folder. Check it out, for a small amount of cash, you can play with some of the excellent players in this forum and have some outstanding prizes too. My only delay was I wasn't sure I'd be able to maintain proper BR management since I started with a really small BR ($20) but that has elevated nicely with some of the wins I've posted in this thread....thats how I was able to join :D
 
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