Calling Middle Pairs against 3 Bets

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LEV1ATHAN

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Hey, I'm new to poker tournaments and have a question regarding 3 bets at a shorter stack sizes such as 25-35bb. Not looking for anything specific more looking for principles of what you do against a 3bet lets say you're in Early position, raise, and an average reg in late position 3 bets a regular size and you have 66. What goes into your decision making to call or fold or whatever you do.

Thanks
 
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bioman420

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I wouldn't pay, but there are many players who pay without malice.
 
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karl coakley

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Position matter in poker. When you are early, the odds of getting called or 3bet are much higher.

At BEST you are going to be 50-50. The problem is with a small pair there is a high risk of getting called by a bigger pair. Also, hands like 66 are hard to play. Rarely are you going to see a board without several overcards. If the flop is A-J-5 what is the plan? You are only 50-50 with a 5 card board, you going to chase a 2 outter hoping you're good?

If you have 100 BB and wanted to splash around I'm good with that. See a flop. At 25-35BB it usually isn't wise to play small pairs early because you don't have the chips to justify the risks.
 
shinmenkami

shinmenkami

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The question is, how much can you profit if you flip the set? If the ratio is 20:1 or higher you should call the bet. In the long run you will flip the set about 12% of the time, that way you will have maximum profit (or minimum loss when you dont hit it)
 
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Zirkzee

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You can decide that with the help of the pot odds. If your opponent 3-bets you can give him a hand range of TT+, AJ+. You probably need three of a kind to win. Because even if your opponent missed the flop, he will often c-bet. Let's say you have 66. You call his 3-bet and the flop is 4JQ. Even if your opponent has AK, he will c-bet and you have to fold your hand. If you get three of a kind and your opponent has top pair with top kicker then you will probably win his entire stack. So your opponent has AK and you have 66 and the flop brings AT6. Most of the time he can't fold this hand. So the calculation is quite simple. Your chances of flopping a drilling is 7: 1. However, you also have to take into account that you can only win the entire stack of your opponent if he also hits top pair or he has still an overpair postflop. Why your opponent and you should have 20 times their raise left to justify a call. This means that in order to justify a call, you and your opponent must have full stacks. Let's say the blinds are 50/100. You have 18.000 and your opponent has 20.000 chips. You raised to 300 in early position. Your opponent raises to 900. You assume that you can win the entire stack of your opponent with a drilling. Since you only have 18.000 chips, you will only be able to win 18.000 chips from your opponent. 900 * 20 equals 18.000. That means in this example you should call.
 
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Living__M

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depends on more information about sort of player you are against. A loose player I would call but against rocky person I would fold or rejam.
 
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natelearnspoker

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It depends on the assessment on how the villain plays. If villain is really aggressive then calling would be ok or even raising because you have equity. If villain is normally passive I would just call or fold.
 
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ph_il

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i wouldn't be opening small-mid pairs from early position with 25-35 bbs. you have a lot of players still behind you to act and getting 3bet puts you in an awkward spot.

you can limp and see what preflop action is, and you'll give yourself better (implied) odds if everyone limps or you need to call a raise preflop. plus you save some of your short stack if you need to fold pre or post flop, compared to calling off a 3bet pre and check/folding a ton of flops.
 
abgvedr

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You can decide that with the help of the pot odds. If your opponent 3-bets you can give him a hand range of TT+, AJ+. You probably need three of a kind to win. Because even if your opponent missed the flop, he will often c-bet. Let's say you have 66. You call his 3-bet and the flop is 4JQ. Even if your opponent has AK, he will c-bet and you have to fold your hand. If you get three of a kind and your opponent has top pair with top kicker then you will probably win his entire stack. So your opponent has AK and you have 66 and the flop brings AT6. Most of the time he can't fold this hand. So the calculation is quite simple. Your chances of flopping a drilling is 7: 1. However, you also have to take into account that you can only win the entire stack of your opponent if he also hits top pair or he has still an overpair postflop. Why your opponent and you should have 20 times their raise left to justify a call. This means that in order to justify a call, you and your opponent must have full stacks. Let's say the blinds are 50/100. You have 18.000 and your opponent has 20.000 chips. You raised to 300 in early position. Your opponent raises to 900. You assume that you can win the entire stack of your opponent with a drilling. Since you only have 18.000 chips, you will only be able to win 18.000 chips from your opponent. 900 * 20 equals 18.000. That means in this example you should call.
He talks about shorter stacks of 25-20 bb, so i think theres no such option as to call, you either fold or shove al in. And it should only be based on your read, how much this player is raising or 3 beting. So i dont think theres too much of maths here but more of psychology. Puting your tournament life on some reads is risky alright, but geting reputation of a pushover is even riskier. I think.
 
abgvedr

abgvedr

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depends on more information about sort of player you are against. A loose player I would call but against rocky person I would fold or rejam.
I don't think calling is an option. U either fold or shove it in. U have no room for much postflop poker with stacks of ~30bb and big preflop raise.
 
theANMATOR

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Hey, I'm new to poker tournaments and have a question regarding 3 bets at a shorter stack sizes such as 25-35bb. Not looking for anything specific more looking for principles of what you do against a 3bet lets say you're in Early position, raise, and an average reg in late position 3 bets a regular size and you have 66. What goes into your decision making to call or fold or whatever you do.
Thanks

For me this depends entirely on the type of opponent I'm up against, and when this happens, either early, middle stage, or late stage of the tourney.
This is probably controversial - but position doesnt factor into my decision - because I'm focused on playing the player.

If this is an aggro donk - I'm probably calling early/middle stages of the tourney. Flop a set - collect chips, flop a strong draw - continue to the turn. Miss the flop - fold and grumble. :)

Late stage tourney vs aggro donk - probably gonna fold 77s down.

Vs a tight reg, probably folding at all stages of the tourney.

Vs an unknown player - will call/fold depending on my mood. :)

Late stage tourney I often fold 55s and down preflop in early position, unless I know the table is playing extremely tight, which is nearly never the case.
 
Yakk

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Calling with Middle pairs a 3-Bet

First you must be very specific when counting a hand, describe in more detail the particular situation, what type of tournament, what speed (normal, turbo), stack sizes, exact positions, type of player all that in order to understand the unique situation you are going through and thus express an opinion as accurate as possible because in poker everything absolutely everything depends on the context.
You must keep in mind a basic game plan, you say that you come out with 66 from early position? You don't think that you come out very loose from that position.
You also talk about what a reg player pays you but you don't say if he is tight or loose, passive or aggressive or if you have seen him as he plays before confronting him.
What range of hands do you think he has and what range of hands do you think he puts you in?
And what does your strategy say preflop? What is your plan against an opponent who 3-bet your open raise or calls you? What is your reaction plan to the different actions?
With that sea of ​​questions that I have asked you, what I intend is to let you know that for each particular action you face you must have an attack or defense pal already built (strategy) in order to react in the best possible way, you cannot leave your "Luck" the decisions to be made, you must have them elaborated, this is how you progress optimally in each phase of the game, in each situation.
You must have a Preflop strategy, a Postflop strategy, know how to play without position or with position and thus you will know how to react to each play, each street.
Start there, study poker strategy, study put it into practice and little by little you will understand better the different situations that will arise in each street.
Before playing review your strategy and stick to it, if something fails, check it again and apply the necessary improvements, your game will improve and your understanding of it.

Cheers


 
theANMATOR

theANMATOR

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I'd add one other element to the equation. It also depends on YOUR table image. If you have shown down only premium hands, have not gotten out of line on this table, and have either won or lost with 1st or 2nd nuts - making good decisions like checking back 2 pair on a straight and flush board, and this player has been at your table to see these show down hands. It might be better just to open fold.

If your image on the table is one of competence - a smart thinking player - that plays a strong range from early position, this player is probably not 3betting light.

On the other hand - if your table image is of a loose lag type player - one that opens marginal playable hands from EP, this 3bet might be lighter than you would expect.

Lots of variables. :) But open folding isn't a terrible option - given your stack size.
 
dorivaldojr

dorivaldojr

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well, in case you have to see how much you have in the pot, for example player B is paying 25 and Player A is paying 50, if player C bets 100, you fold or in case you have AK or KK or AA or some pair of value, Bet about 200, that's how I do it
 
MAGICUZ

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With such blinds I don't play with such pairs in early position, this is a minus game
 
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