D
David G
Rock Star
Silver Level
I don't advocate for him making it that big, I just don't think it's as bad as you made it out to be. But then again I also don't think it's a big deal he didn't convert the HH, so it's probably just a difference in opinion.
Just so he knows though, your advice to 3bet smaller when in position is the better route than what he did. However, that's also assuming he can play post flop well, and since he's somewhat of a new player, I think he's better off with less decisions.
TBH I think he can just straight shove here, as at this stage there are a lot of recreational players and you'll get lots of calls with under pairs and even random hands sometimes. Shoving, to these types, can actually look weaker than a small 3b.
If he's astute at playing post then 3bing small is the way to go. He then can learn to do it with hands that are not top 4
Just so he knows though, your advice to 3bet smaller when in position is the better route than what he did. However, that's also assuming he can play post flop well, and since he's somewhat of a new player, I think he's better off with less decisions.
TBH I think he can just straight shove here, as at this stage there are a lot of recreational players and you'll get lots of calls with under pairs and even random hands sometimes. Shoving, to these types, can actually look weaker than a small 3b.
If he's astute at playing post then 3bing small is the way to go. He then can learn to do it with hands that are not top 4
D
David G
Rock Star
Silver Level
Any time you can take a pot without a showdown is good. You'll have a win rate of 100% and win every tournament if you never have to showdown.
I think we are being ticky-tac and I'm guilty of it and you are as well (again the example of your response to him posting a raw HH) For this particualr hand, vs an ep raise who will have much pot odds, I like that he has a chance to take this pot without a showdown vs that particular hand. Could this shorty EP raiser have an under pair? Yes, and I think he plays it regardless. Also, at this buy in level vs these player who want to see flops, I don't think 3bing big is that huge of a mistake as you'll see enough people call it and fold post of just go all in with w/e. Rec's get married to their hand and arnt thinking deeply about anything and want to see flops/showdowns. There could be an argument made for losing chips you could have had by raising too small.
gtg, gl.
B
baudib1
Legend
Silver Level
Wrong, everyone overvalues survival. Your tournament life is worth very little.
D
David G
Rock Star
Silver Level
For a good player who can find better spots, survival is more important than taking a slight +ev play.
This is why good player try and avoid "flips" if they can, but obv will take them when they have to. They will fold knowing they are in that situation even with a little bit of odds. The ev to be made in future, better spots, or "surviving" is higher to them than taking the slight ev right there.
We just have different philosophies, and I imagine you are a grinder who takes every + ev spot without thought. Nothing wrong with that as +ev is +ev and you'll win in the end. I just personally think your ROI might suffer from it and I know there's a lot more variance in it.
Now, if we are talking super turbos sng's then taking EVERY + ev spot is absolutely recommended. I just think in a full ring mtt that's in early stages, it's ok to pass on slight +ev spots or take pots without showdown that you may have gained a few chips in the longrun with otherwise.
Pascal-lf
Legend
Silver Level
I don't advocate for him making it that big, I just don't think it's as bad as you made it out to be. But then again I also don't think it's a big deal he didn't convert the HH, so it's probably just a difference in opinion.
Just so he knows though, your advice to 3bet smaller when in position is the better route than what he did. However, that's also assuming he can play post flop well, and since he's somewhat of a new player, I think he's better off with less decisions.
TBH I think he can just straight shove here, as at this stage there are a lot of recreational players and you'll get lots of calls with under pairs and even random hands sometimes. Shoving, to these types, can actually look weaker than a small 3b.
If he's astute at playing post then 3bing small is the way to go. He then can learn to do it with hands that are not top 4
straight shoving looses a ton of value. i'm not here to try and discuss "ok" plays - anything with queens here is an "ok" play. what we need to do is discuss the optimal play and explain why. if he finds that making it small means he needs to play post flop more often and he isn't comfortable with that, then he can take that as an indicator to improve his post flop game and post more hands for example.
as well as that, while making it big here might not be 'so' bad, making it this big deep is just spewing equity, and that would be horrible.
3bet calling here isn't a slightly +ev play, it's a massively +ev play. your edge would have to be huge to pass up a spot for a reason such as "survival" when you have 60%+ against someones range if they 4bet shove enough.
i definitely don't take every +ev spot without thought - i appreciate that icm plays a huge part deep, and i will happily pass up very +cev spots if it's not +$ev. but i'm not going to start spewing chip and $ equity early in a tournament, or suggesting that others do the same.
B
baudib1
Legend
Silver Level
The more +EV spots you pass up the less chance you have of taking pots without showdown.
3-betting QQ to a size in order to fold out AK (if that even happens) is pretty much a disaster compared to getting AK to ship over a smaller size. 55-45 isn't a "slight +ev" spot and there's no one who is good enough to pass up QQ vs. AK when we're miles away from any ICM considerations.
3-betting QQ to a size in order to fold out AK (if that even happens) is pretty much a disaster compared to getting AK to ship over a smaller size. 55-45 isn't a "slight +ev" spot and there's no one who is good enough to pass up QQ vs. AK when we're miles away from any ICM considerations.
Johniblayze
Enthusiast
Silver Level
When I got really good at playing 45 man mtts i threw ICM out the window & relied only on chip ev. ppl play so tight on the bubble and at final tables you can get away with stealing almost everytime in late position. I will say that I played a ton of volume, so I didn't have the huge swings that playing + chip ev creates.
Anyways, you want action with your QQ's dont you. Fish are calling off there stacks with ax. QQ is in the top 1.4% of hands. I have only folded this hand a few times. Bad players play bad & you have a hand thats in the top 1.4% of hands. Get some value here pre & post your hand crushes most ppls ranges. Maybe fold to 2 nits shoving pre but other than that play some poker with an awesome hand.
gl
Anyways, you want action with your QQ's dont you. Fish are calling off there stacks with ax. QQ is in the top 1.4% of hands. I have only folded this hand a few times. Bad players play bad & you have a hand thats in the top 1.4% of hands. Get some value here pre & post your hand crushes most ppls ranges. Maybe fold to 2 nits shoving pre but other than that play some poker with an awesome hand.
gl
K
kanselau
Rock Star
Silver Level
very well put , without being a good post flop player and plenty of fish at theses stakes who will call with AQ AK 88 10 hands , even shoving is super ev+ ,. In this situation we want to play our qq against Ak 88 etc and while theses weak fish will happily ship in their 10s preflop, if we 3bet small and they just call and a Q arrives on the flop, these weak players can shut down not puting in another chip into the pot as they will be afraid of the q , ev- situation for us .
at higher stakes where players are more experiance 3b big doesnt make sense as we only get called by better hands , so 3b x3, i think is more profitable
at higher stakes where players are more experiance 3b big doesnt make sense as we only get called by better hands , so 3b x3, i think is more profitable
I don't advocate for him making it that big, I just don't think it's as bad as you made it out to be. But then again I also don't think it's a big deal he didn't convert the HH, so it's probably just a difference in opinion.
Just so he knows though, your advice to 3bet smaller when in position is the better route than what he did. However, that's also assuming he can play post flop well, and since he's somewhat of a new player, I think he's better off with less decisions.
TBH I think he can just straight shove here, as at this stage there are a lot of recreational players and you'll get lots of calls with under pairs and even random hands sometimes. Shoving, to these types, can actually look weaker than a small 3b.
If he's astute at playing post then 3bing small is the way to go. He then can learn to do it with hands that are not top 4
Last edited:
D
David G
Rock Star
Silver Level
lol, I can hear them coming now...
FWIW I got off topic here with pascal and intermingled my discussion with the OP and outside it. It's a bit incoherent I admit.
The advice given here is quite simple tbh, and it's simply correct. Not rocket science, I just think I veered into areas of a discussion I was having with a friend about survival, 20BB and less poker, and ICM. Here it looks like a hodge-podge. The 36 hours I had been up didnt help either (and yet I'm on another looong streatch, sigh...)
Gonna get about 3 hours of ZZzzzZZzz's. See you guys in the 150k on Merge if I can get up in time BTW, the 150 seat to 150k weekly freeroll is a huge value and is a must play imo. As long as you rake only $25 in the previous week, you're in. It used to pay 100 spots and now is up to 150, and lately the field size had been getting smaller. Today there was only 900 something. And at least a hundred or more of those are sitting out
FWIW I got off topic here with pascal and intermingled my discussion with the OP and outside it. It's a bit incoherent I admit.
The advice given here is quite simple tbh, and it's simply correct. Not rocket science, I just think I veered into areas of a discussion I was having with a friend about survival, 20BB and less poker, and ICM. Here it looks like a hodge-podge. The 36 hours I had been up didnt help either (and yet I'm on another looong streatch, sigh...)
Gonna get about 3 hours of ZZzzzZZzz's. See you guys in the 150k on Merge if I can get up in time
BTW, the 150 seat to 150k weekly freeroll is a huge value and is a must play imo. As long as you rake only $25 in the previous week, you're in. It used to pay 100 spots and now is up to 150, and lately the field size had been getting smaller. Today there was only 900 something. And at least a hundred or more of those are sitting out
S
sagiPOTM
Rock Star
Silver Level
ok, there is mathematics to calculate should you call or not but my mathematic is simple, either you take the risk or you dont... QQ is good hand but if after your rase u get 2 all ins you SHOULD probably fold, but ofc u can take a shot because other 2 guys probably have AQ AK AJ etc. like in your case so 2 aces are eliminated and u have good chances to win if they dont hit A or K and ofc there is chance that you hit Q and then you in very very good shape.
So, either you take risk or you dont, very simple...
So, either you take risk or you dont, very simple...
S
shades1875
Rising Star
Silver Level
Thanks for all the replies folks......
Just happened again I call with AK in the SB, BB calls and it's 10's v Q's v AK.....I go out.
I feel like there is an argument for maintaining a presence in a tournament rather than playing for 3 hours then getting burst on one hand......after all, you can still play with even 1 chip - you can't play with none. I had a good stack - It's one of the big frustrations I have.
I feel like I play solidly and more often than not build my stack steadily and get myself into a good position and then BANG.....this happens.
I know if I come out the other side on top then I'm on easy street!
The other thing is it feels to me like poker for dummies......wait on a big pair and throw them in hoping for a caller, where's the play in that?
Maybe it's because i'm not inherently a gambler. I like the game and want to be good at it, that to me is more important than winning a few pennies.......although every little helps!
Still I don't know about this, I'm veering towards staying out of it early to mid stages of a tourney.....late on obviously I'm playing these hands 100%.......maybe I'm just frustrated.
Thanks again for the replies
Just happened again I call with AK in the SB, BB calls and it's 10's v Q's v AK.....I go out.
I feel like there is an argument for maintaining a presence in a tournament rather than playing for 3 hours then getting burst on one hand......after all, you can still play with even 1 chip - you can't play with none. I had a good stack - It's one of the big frustrations I have.
I feel like I play solidly and more often than not build my stack steadily and get myself into a good position and then BANG.....this happens.
I know if I come out the other side on top then I'm on easy street!
The other thing is it feels to me like poker for dummies......wait on a big pair and throw them in hoping for a caller, where's the play in that?
Maybe it's because i'm not inherently a gambler. I like the game and want to be good at it, that to me is more important than winning a few pennies.......although every little helps!
Still I don't know about this, I'm veering towards staying out of it early to mid stages of a tourney.....late on obviously I'm playing these hands 100%.......maybe I'm just frustrated.
Thanks again for the replies
B
BlueNowhere
Legend
Silver Level
Sure, if you don't like money then maintaining a presence is a sick plan. In terms of plans that strategy is probably up there with trying to see as many flops as possible in case you hit two pair or better.
S
shades1875
Rising Star
Silver Level
Yes, I understand. I suppose another way of putting it is that I feel like there is no way of playing intelligently here - ok you put your opp. on a range but in most MTT's you're moving around so much that it is hard to do that.
It might be that it's not how I play and that might be a mistake. At these points in the tournament I don't throw all the chips in when I'm first to bet, or even second. Wrong?
I probably know that you have to call and wait and see, It's just a scenario that I'm not comfortable with as you have no control over the situ.
Pascal-lf
Legend
Silver Level
In terms of presence, let's take a random tournament. I'm railing Hot $16 so we'll call it that. 540/4000 cash for $25, and 1st gets $9,500. Therefore, you'd need 380 min cashes to get the same amount of cashes as coming first just once of those 380 times. Similarly, if you came 100/4000, you'd get just $78. Therefore, if you can exchange 300 min cashes or 99 100th places for 1 1st, it's profitable, which is why we should always play for the win. Variance is changed by edge, not by taking "high" or "low" variance routes - if you always take the best option, even if it isn't the "safest" in terms of tournament life, your variance will be at it's lowest possible.
Poker is about patience. That's why gamblers will never be good at it - they are too keen to get their chips in in non-EV spots. It's also why I'd never suggest playing if you are short of time or can't be bothered.