On the bubble, bigger stacks playing against small stacks with junk?

[pjokay]

Okay keep seeing this at the end of satellites and getting frustrated by this. Anyone else find this irritating?

Sometimes a couple of players left to the bubble, smallest stacks having 3/4 blinds and bigger stacks take them on with absolute junk ie 510o. Invariably they call before they get blinded out and double up.

Then this keeps happening and your place that was secure becomes at risk.

Anyone else find this frustrating? Yes, put pressure on small stacks but not with absolute junk.

 

[Newzooozooo]

Hi.
These situations do not irritate me at all. On the contrary, I believe that this behavior of my opponents, gives me a good chance to win.
Good luck.

 

[pjokay]

I find the opposite because your waiting for the small stacks to bust and shouldn't really risk busting yourself if well ahead of small stacks near the bubble in a satellite.

However by big stacks chipping the small stacks with really weak hands the bubble goes on and on.

Your comfortable lead then goes away

Hi.
These situations do not irritate me at all. On the contrary, I believe that this behavior of my opponents, gives me a good chance to win.
Good luck.

I find the opposite because your waiting for the small stacks to bust and shouldn't really risk busting yourself if well ahead of small stacks near the bubble in a satellite.

However by big stacks chipping the small stacks with really weak hands the bubble goes on and on.

Your comfortable lead then goes away I find the opposite because your waiting for the small stacks to bust and shouldn't really risk busting yourself if well ahead of small stacks near the bubble in a satellite.

However by big stacks chipping the small stacks with really weak hands the bubble goes on and on.

Your comfortable lead then goes away and can then be at risk/knocked out.

 

[Alex70793]

I yesterday in the jubilee tournament cardschat flew on the loot with the hand AK, in front of me was a player with a large stack four times larger than mine, he went limp, I went all-in, he called, he had 33, the flop fell to, I was happy, but all the cards were of the same suit, and I did not have this suit, and he had, on the turn he fell flush, I lost. I had a good stack in the tournament 135 prizes, I was in 71 place, it was possible to wait out the bubble only 2-3 hands, and I would be in prizes, but I did not wait, because I had a hand AK............... I'm very upset. ((((((

 

[pentazepam]

You are correct. Especially in Satellites it is stupid to try to take out the smallest stack that have the odds to call with almost anything if you have total garbage yourself.

In a normal tournament and if short stack player looks like he is trying to survive into the money at all cost, maybe a raise with any to card if you attack him from the button or small blind.

 

[TheDude6622]

It just takes a while longer for them to bust. At that point, the one thing you want to think about is conserving your stack. Whether it be a shove or fold or raise or call. You want to make sure you are at that next level.

 

[pjokay]

I yesterday in the jubilee tournament cardschat flew on the loot with the hand AK, in front of me was a player with a large stack four times larger than mine, he went limp, I went all-in, he called, he had 33, the flop fell to, I was happy, but all the cards were of the same suit, and I did not have this suit, and he had, on the turn he fell flush, I lost. I had a good stack in the tournament 135 prizes, I was in 71 place, it was possible to wait out the bubble only 2-3 hands, and I would be in prizes, but I did not wait, because I had a hand AK............... I'm very upset. ((((((

Hi Alex

I would not beat yourself up at all. AK is considered a fairly monster hand, its not like you just shoved with mediocre cards even made a bad post flop mistake. Yes ideally you want to cash, but with premium hands you do want to give yourself a shot to run deep. It's normally a flip or if you had him dominated you would have had a huge advantage.

What you did was give yourself a shot to make a great position, and in my book that's good play. In paid tournaments you will lose money just cashing for all the times you don't. It's all about making final tables. But in long games there are always going to be flip situations you have to win.

Personally I think its a mistake to call a big shove with threes, too many overpairs and if not still flipping.

Hopefully you'll get there next time.

pj.

 

[Alekxandrovi3]

When playing bubble at the satellite and a small stack goes all in it is usually best to call several players, then the chance of surviving his hand will be much smaller, and we will be closer to the prizes is losing the least of his stack. The biggest mistake in the later stages of not only conventional but also in tournaments gipperturbo is playing too tight. Stack will gradually melt away with a rather large blinds and antes. Try to play in rhythm with his table, most efficient use of your stack. Too cautious against opponents and the small stacks play more aggressively as possible. Try not to be exposed to a small stack all in 1 on 1 but if he plays against a few players then help them.

 

[Vallet]

I notice the aggression of the big stacks when their cards are opened on the bubble. They do not worry about small losses of chips. You need to avoid such provocations to advance further in tournament.

 

[RasterGFX]

Okay keep seeing this at the end of satellites and getting frustrated by this. Anyone else find this irritating?

Sometimes a couple of players left to the bubble, smallest stacks having 3/4 blinds and bigger stacks take them on with absolute junk ie 510o. Invariably they call before they get blinded out and double up.

Then this keeps happening and your place that was secure becomes at risk.

Anyone else find this frustrating? Yes, put pressure on small stacks but not with absolute junk.

This happened to me on the BOL CC 5k Anniv. I had around 7k chips and was in like 60th place? Anyways, it went around and around and around (maybe 30 hands of pure junk for me) and I was down to 2.4k and finally got K10 so I went all in (UTG would have been all in next hands anyways) and everyone folded except big blind. He called (wasn't a big call for him) but had 72hearts. I flopped a K. 2 hearts flopped also. Turn nothing. River heart. So I was taken out in 59th (paid only through 55) by a chip leader who had 72. I wasn't mad or anything they did the right thing by calling. It's just disappointing to get that close and failing miserably.

 

[finaltable1]

(maybe 30 hands of pure junk for me) and I was down to 2.4k and finally got K10 so I went all in

KT was 31st hand of pure junk..



Here's a question for you.
36 players paid, 37players left, MTT, 9-max, 10% ante...
You have 2bb stack and you're on the Button. You're observing all remaining 5 tables and you clearly see that at some other table sits player with 1bb stack and BB will hit him in 4 deals, at 3rd table you see a inactive player with 3BB stack he's also on the Button like you are.
In this situation, when you're on the button, you have pocket Aces. One of the bigger stacks in front of you have raised to 2.5BB and 2 more players have called. It's your turn to act, you have 2BB stack and pocket aces. What will you do?

Funny things have happened to me in the past:

- won a 5Eur buy-in MTT after being down to 1.5BB 40 minutes before the money.
- reached the final table of $2.2 buy-in MTT after being down to 0.7BB just before the bubble.

and finally...

falled asleep having 40BB stack being in the money in $5.5 MTT, slept for like 40-50 minutes and woke up because of the alarm sound after the next break, had 2BB left and approx 20 players remaining, guess what happened after that. :dancing2:
----------------------

Each tourney has 3 main phases, each phase has steps. In the first phase you have 2 goals 1) build a stack 2) proceed to "in the money" phase. 2nd part is more important than 1st, you may still hit the money without a comfortable stack.. Sometimes that 1bb stack stays alive for another 20-30-40 deals, sometimes players with big stacks call bluffs having pocket aces and lose to T5os.

SO assuming it all, if your stack is much smaller than average, then you're in "survival" mode. Your main goal is to hit the money, so you can easily fold any weak pocket pairs and trash like KT. When you'll hit the money you can start testing your luck and see if arithmetic progression will help you, 1bb stack can easily become 5bb stack after the first all-in, because of antes/limpers/blinds. 5BB stack can easily become 12BB stack and so on... In just 3 all-ins you'll be back to average after being down to 1bb. But it's important to have ROI before testing your luck. ROI = Return Of Investment.

 

[RasterGFX]

KT was 31st hand of pure junk..

Very true, but I was about to be hit with BB for I think it was at 1200? So it was that or see if BB gave better....

SO assuming it all, if your stack is much smaller than average, then you're in "survival" mode. Your main goal is to hit the money, so you can easily fold any weak pocket pairs and trash like KT. When you'll hit the money you can start testing your luck and see if arithmetic progression will help you, 1bb stack can easily become 5bb stack after the first all-in, because of antes/limpers/blinds. 5BB stack can easily become 12BB stack and so on... In just 3 all-ins you'll be back to average after being down to 1bb. But it's important to have ROI before testing your luck. ROI = Return Of Investment.

I was in pure survival mode at that point. I should have tried to make moves but everyone was going crazy all-ins and raises that would have put me all in. I just wasn't confident in any cards I was getting in the positions I got them and that K10 was literally the best I got in like 30 hands. Oh well, can't win them all....

 

[Cam54]

It's honestly pretty simple .... That big stack's chips are worth less to him than yours are to you .... I would suggest you look into ICM considerations for a full explanation .. you can just google it .. I'm sure you will find a lot of info ...

ICM is an important concept as the tournament winds down and as someone else said one of the biggest mistakes you can make near the bubble on a big stack imo is to play too tight .... while it is nobody's job to make the kill .... the bigger stacks are just waiting for smaller stacks to go bust ... it has been said in several books that I have read for players with big stacks to call and the more that do the better .. the better chance they have to bust you even with complete trash .... because that trash can win and if 3 or more call you your chances to survive decrease in a big way ....they do not care if they win the hand .. only that you are gone ... pretty cut throat hunh ?? it's nothing personal, they just want to win ...

If I had advice for you in this position it would not be to make a move with less than something pretty nuttish at least till you fall below 20 BB and at that point I'm gonna jam with any ace or any king ...

I don't play to cash I play to win and if you survive but have no stack you have virtually no chance anyhow ....

 

[williamsc99]

I think it's like telling a soccer player with the open goal that he should kick out

 

[zinzir]

For me it really doesn't matter because my goal is to win, not to pass the bubble. So I play my good hands aggressively, and if the big stack wants to gamble with me using garbage, he is more than welcome.

 

[finaltable1]

I don't play to cash I play to win and if you survive but have no stack you have virtually no chance anyhow ....

What are you talking about? "I don't play to cash I play to win" What does it mean? Does it means that you understand ICM, but doesn't care about ROI?

What exactly you're trying to win when you're playing? Is it chips or money? If you're serious about poker tournaments, then you'll be playing several thousands of them per year, at the same buy-in limit, until your bankroll grows to the next limit. During such long runs the more time you're in the money - the higher your total profit is. Hitting the money with very short stack is much better than busting out before the money bubble while trying to build a stack with bluffs or EV- moves. It's easy to play on the bubble when you're a massive chipleader of the table, it's easy to play when you're having pocket aces at 2 7 A flop. You don't need to think much, and you can "play to win" lol, but how can you defend yourself from a runner-runner quads or flush against your top set on the flop? Is it worth to spend 3-4-5 hours till the money bubble and then risk it all for nothing? WHy not let others, those who are more tilted, to decide if they want to be paid with min cash or not in this current tournament.

 

[Chief talking bull]

That doesn't bother me too much but what gets my goat is when someone bets heavy into a dry side pot with nothing forcing me out and keeps a player alive when I could have taken them out.

 

[Cam54]

What are you talking about? "I don't play to cash I play to win" What does it mean? Does it means that you understand ICM, but doesn't care about ROI?

What exactly you're trying to win when you're playing? Is it chips or money? If you're serious about poker tournaments, then you'll be playing several thousands of them per year, at the same buy-in limit, until your bankroll grows to the next limit. During such long runs the more time you're in the money - the higher your total profit is. Hitting the money with very short stack is much better than busting out before the money bubble while trying to build a stack with bluffs or EV- moves. It's easy to play on the bubble when you're a massive chipleader of the table, it's easy to play when you're having pocket aces at 2 7 A flop. You don't need to think much, and you can "play to win" lol, but how can you defend yourself from a runner-runner quads or flush against your top set on the flop? Is it worth to spend 3-4-5 hours till the money bubble and then risk it all for nothing? WHy not let others, those who are more tilted, to decide if they want to be paid with min cash or not in this current tournament.

Take it how you want ... we both know the payout structure is top heavy I'm not interested in getting my buy in back .. I want more .. and I stand by what I said, you put pressure on the short stacks and get to where the money is or it doesn't matter to me .... it was my opinion and still is ...

I am and always have been very competitive .... if someone is that concerned with getting their buy in back good for them I am not, again, I want more, and I will fight for it and go out it a fireball if I have to, IMO that's the nature of tournaments anyhow, far better than being timid and taking what is offered ...

 

[finaltable1]

Take it how you want ... we both know the payout structure is top heavy I'm not interested in getting my buy in back .. I want more .. and I stand by what I said, you put pressure on the short stacks and get to where the money is or it doesn't matter to me .... it was my opinion and still is ...

I am and always have been very competitive .... if someone is that concerned with getting their buy in back good for them I am not, again, I want more, and I will fight for it and go out it a fireball if I have to, IMO that's the nature of tournaments anyhow, far better than being timid and taking what is offered ...

Smells like western stereotype. Hey, here's a funny joke below, or maybe it's not a joke?

Living inside Chinese dream: You walk outside the bar, local bully and four of his friends beat you hard at the street. You realize that you're weak, so climb on top of the Shaolin mountain, spend 5 years practicing martial arts with monks, then come back to town, find those bullies, beat them all together and then you're the coolest guy in town.

Living inside american dream: 5 bullies beat you, you realize that you're weak, on your way home you find a radioactive spider/chicken/pig... this radioactive creature bites you, you instantly become a ChickenMan, then you're flying back to find bullies and shoot them down with eggs, and there you go - you're the coolest guy in town.

What's real, and what's not? Practicing and working hard for the goals that can be achieved during the long run is logically correct and discipline is needed for that. Riding the horse of luck in the game of luck and hitting the 1st place with a help of dozen of radioactive accidents is something that can happen to anyone. If your choice is to skip the min cash stage trying to build a stack for the final table then I believe you'll have problems with your bankroll management.

Well, actually, you might be right if you're talking about freerolls or micro buy-in tourneys. If average salary of all participants is 10+ per hour and they're playing 1.1 buy-in mtt, then such logic of putting pressure with trashy hands might work, just because majority of the field is loose/aggressive. Same for bounty type tourneys.



"and I stand by what I said, you put pressure on the short stacks and get to where the money is or it doesn't matter to me"

Have you played Sunday Million at PS or such tourneys at other sites? They've changed the buy-in. was 215, now 109. Let's say that buy-in is 215, you've checked stats of all opponents at the table, they're all profitable or very profitable players, but you've got a huge stack from previous tables, it's 1 hour left to play till the money, min cash is x3 buy-ins... What will you do? Will you be putting pressure to short stacks with trash hands like KT-A7-JQ? If you will, then keep in mind, that Sunday Million, runs once a week, year has 52 weeks, and you will need to spend like 10 years to hit that final table with such logic of yours, cause participants there love such players who put a pressure on the short stacks with weak hands.

https://www.pocketfives.com/article...wins-second-sunday-million-in-8-weeks-623758/

That Russian guy "Lucky_Jew_17" - you can observe him playing. I did, many times. Together with many other top regs. They love to be under the pressure of the big loose and aggressive stacks. :2in1:

 

[levidoff]

This is a standard bubble game. From the fact that you double, nothing will change waiting for you. But you can fly out. So find and read information about the game during this period of the tournament.

 

[berryryan2488]

I would rather have a big stack lose some of their chips to a small stack instead of having the bigger stack win. That gives me a better chance of placing higher in the tournament. One thing I don't recommend doing is folding everything until the bubble breaks. Some players are so afraid of not cashing that they eliminate their chances of possibly making some actual money in the tournament and settle for barely breaking even.

 

[masik6]

If you play with a large stack on the loot, it is natural that you will try to absorb small stacks, but for a small stack, this is a very good opportunity to double the amount of money you have.

 

[Cam54]

Smells like western stereotype. Hey, here's a funny joke below, or maybe it's not a joke?

Living inside Chinese dream: You walk outside the bar, local bully and four of his friends beat you hard at the street. You realize that you're weak, so climb on top of the Shaolin mountain, spend 5 years practicing martial arts with monks, then come back to town, find those bullies, beat them all together and then you're the coolest guy in town.

Living inside american dream: 5 bullies beat you, you realize that you're weak, on your way home you find a radioactive spider/chicken/pig... this radioactive creature bites you, you instantly become a ChickenMan, then you're flying back to find bullies and shoot them down with eggs, and there you go - you're the coolest guy in town.

What's real, and what's not? Practicing and working hard for the goals that can be achieved during the long run is logically correct and discipline is needed for that. Riding the horse of luck in the game of luck and hitting the 1st place with a help of dozen of radioactive accidents is something that can happen to anyone. If your choice is to skip the min cash stage trying to build a stack for the final table then I believe you'll have problems with your bankroll management.

Well, actually, you might be right if you're talking about freerolls or micro buy-in tourneys. If average salary of all participants is 10+ per hour and they're playing 1.1 buy-in mtt, then such logic of putting pressure with trashy hands might work, just because majority of the field is loose/aggressive. Same for bounty type tourneys.



"and I stand by what I said, you put pressure on the short stacks and get to where the money is or it doesn't matter to me"

Have you played Sunday Million at PS or such tourneys at other sites? They've changed the buy-in. was 215, now 109. Let's say that buy-in is 215, you've checked stats of all opponents at the table, they're all profitable or very profitable players, but you've got a huge stack from previous tables, it's 1 hour left to play till the money, min cash is x3 buy-ins... What will you do? Will you be putting pressure to short stacks with trash hands like KT-A7-JQ? If you will, then keep in mind, that Sunday Million, runs once a week, year has 52 weeks, and you will need to spend like 10 years to hit that final table with such logic of yours, cause participants there love such players who put a pressure on the short stacks with weak hands.

https://www.pocketfives.com/article...wins-second-sunday-million-in-8-weeks-623758/

That Russian guy "Lucky_Jew_17" - you can observe him playing. I did, many times. Together with many other top regs. They love to be under the pressure of the big loose and aggressive stacks. :2in1:

The OP described a situation that was frustrating him and why it happened ... I in turn described a strategy that is employed successfully by more than a few, .... it's not going to stop because you or anyone else doesn't like it and people are going to play how they want ... it's ludicrous to think that how you or anyone plays in a vacuum is going to consistently work under real circumstances ... when I was in the service we had lots of sayings one such went like this .... all plans go out the window when the first round goes down the barrel ... this describes how this seems to me exactly .. you have to have a plan but you better be able to adjust ....

I don't play the Sunday millions it's been several years since I was able to play at PS .. although I have played that tourney, unclear again what your point is different levels of play require different strategy. I play micro to lows online and lower stakes cash games in brick and mortar ... Tournaments are a sideline for me at the moment and I play for the enjoyment ... trying to build a bankroll on tourneys alone is hard road to go .... I responded to the OP with a means to combat this ... if you are on a short stack you have to take chances you have a lot of flipping to do before you develop the stack you need to compete .... and the big stacks WILL try and eliminate you ... it has been an almost unwritten law and they WILL gang up on you even with junk, if you haven't seen it you aren't paying attention ...


What I'm not going to do is make insinuations ... or throw out stereotypical assumptions of other members .. or tell wacked out stories about chicken man ?? and seriously if someone pops quads against you runner-runner after you are all in does it matter if you went in with 2-7 off or pocket kings .. you are just beat ... and forgive me again but if you can't see the flush coming and observe betting patterns .. ie. know when to put on the brakes .. you deserve what comes for better or worse ...and I certainly didn't come here to argue with anyone in a mindless fashion ....

I won't comment on this again mainly because there is nothing I have said that I feel I need to defend any further and I'm not going argue just for the sake of arguing, which seems to be your tack .... This post is too long as it is ....but that was a whole lot of crap to respond to

Be safe .. well and have a great day .... peace

 

[finaltable1]

when I was in the service we had lots of sayings one such went like this .... all plans go out the window when the first round goes down the barrel ... this describes how this seems to me exactly .. you have to have a plan but you better be able to adjust ....

Sayings are forming the culture and way of thinking, together with other things that are usual(normal). But what's usual in one place, isn't usual in the other place. Objective opinion can be formed only by those who understand all points of view and can find a independent logic among all subjective thoughts. You see, poker pro has no nationality, they all see objective truth of the game, while at the same time average players from different countries are playing a completely different game, because of different reasons like temper, average iQ level, which is based on education and so on, many reasons... So that's why majority of online poker players from different countries are playing the same, but also different game.

I'm kind of in the middle, and clearly see the difference, even poker articles at poker sites in different languages are different. For example article about 10 premium hands chart here at CardsChat differs from the same article at poker sites in other languages, I know it because English is my 3rd language. Average German player plays a whole different game than average American player. So as Russians and Chinese players do, So as Brasilians compared to Canadians... Same 52 cards, flop-turn-river, but completely different ways of thinking. That's why some actions are considered as acts of stupidity. But once again - professional has no nationality, it's the one who accepts the truth as it is, without subjective logic based on the stereotypes of his society.

Here's a nice eastern saying

 

[pjokay]

Very true, but I was about to be hit with BB for I think it was at 1200? So it was that or see if BB gave better....



I was in pure survival mode at that point. I should have tried to make moves but everyone was going crazy all-ins and raises that would have put me all in. I just wasn't confident in any cards I was getting in the positions I got them and that K10 was literally the best I got in like 30 hands. Oh well, can't win them all....

I cannot see an issue shoving k10 in this spot with only 2 blinds. Its way above an average hand you can could be put allin with once in the BB in the next hand. If you wait for the BB and say 58 the left with 1 bb going down to half in the sb and that's ignoring antes. A fine shove.