annoying chip leader

[Lucothefish]

You want to be ahead of the odds when calling.

Picture the villain's 100% range as a line:

Bottom                      Average                       Top
   |---------------------------|---------------------------|

At one end, we have the bottom of the villain's range (72o). At the other, the top (AA). Roughly speaking, if we want 50% equity or better against a villain's range our hand needs to be 'above average', so our calling range is half of the villain's perceived range. If they are shoving 100%, we call 50%. Simples.

The problem with calling with 73o is you're still taking the worst of it nearly all the time

/overly simplified example

 

[duggs]

we actually just need the pot odds of equity. ie if he shoves so that we get 2-1 we need 33% equity. i

 

[Lucothefish]

we actually just need the pot odds of equity. ie if he shoves so that we get 2-1 we need 33% equity. i

Yeah I grazed on it in the first sentence, 'ahead of the odds'

 

[snklzona]

Any pair when that short handed should have got you going right over the top of him...do that once and he slows down or loses chips...

 

[Blobweird123]

I think that you should've called with the JJs or 99s

I always call with Suited pocket pairs! only bustin your chops

But yeah thats a snap shove with any pocket pair there, hindsight or not really. Hell, that short stacked, im shoving JJ against the TOP of his range too lol. You're close to being blinded out

 

[frozensprx]

is this even a question? its such a small amount of money to win also, not like it is the wsop and even if it was I would snap it off with both 99 and jj if he was pushing frequently

 

[left52side]

I suppose I am that annoying choip leader because If I have that many chips I am gonna put pressure on anyone as much as I can.
Annoying but the proper way to play by my ethics.
Especially if the image I have of you folding jj and 99 im definatly gonna put lots of pressure if that is your range lol.
Anyway yeah as mentioned before definatly have to make them calls and even if it makes you bubble boy it is better to go out in style rather than to just be drindled away by blinds.

 

[jazzaxe]

A good example of how aggressiveness pays off. His overt aggressiveness makes him strong in the short run, long run he has to be stopped.

 

[needaGF]

That's really annoying, and it is quite normal for a chip leader to play like this...
However, I would not call with 99, but JJ I will call it.

 

[needaGF]

That's really annoying, and it is quite normal for a chip leader to play like this...
However, I would not call with 99, but JJ I will call it.

If u dont call him with JJ, you only call him with AA KK or QQ?

 

[spunka]

we actually just need the pot odds of equity. ie if he shoves so that we get 2-1 we need 33% equity. i

This is a tournament, not a Cash a game, so please don't make simple statement like this.
You could however base your calculations on ICM, that would be a bit closer.
But as nearly all agree on folding with 99 and JJ is way to tight.
Think a range of A with Down to 8 and K with Down to T and pairs above 88 (66), and then you are still playing reasonly tight.

 

[Poker Orifice]

Weather you should call or not actually depends on something called independent chip model, or ICM.
There are times when you should fold 99 and JJ, and wait for the other stacks to get knocked out, but most of the time you should call.

.

This ^
And (haven't read page 2 'yet') sooooo many in this thread seem to not have a clue when they suggest it's a snapcall without taking stuff into consideration.
How can you say the '99' is a snapcall here (without knowing details).

I never EVER let anyone bully me around. id call him with any ACE, any pocket pair. any broadways. Agre with you fully.
Id also like to add id be shoving any hand above average cause i wanna be stealing blinds too. screw the chip leader. you cant be a passive fish unless you wanna lose. GRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR lol

You'd be cool... but you'd likely be wrong too. (remember that other thread where they mentioned 'ICM' ... might want to investigate that a tad further... just sayin' )

 

[inflnlte]

Ive had these things happen to me in a freeroll in similar situations. I end up calling and then just hope i dont lose. A lot of times, the chip leader wakes up with a big hand or gets lucky but thats just poker. You have to play for first and calling is the only way to do it.

 

[MSINIWRAD]

Snap call any pair, any Ace, and probably KJ+ as well...winning 50 bucks once is better than winning 20 bucks twice no matter how you add it up...gotta play for the win

 

[aa88wildbill]

Yesterday i was playing a 100$ freeroll an we have been down to 4 player, three paid (50/30/20$)
chipleader was far ahead with around 27 k stake, us three between 2 and 4 k stake. He sit right to me an shoved nearly every time on small blind.

Twice i thought you should call holding jj and 99 but did not afraid being the bubble boy.

What do you think about this? should i have called?

Absolutely, bubble boy or not!

 

[vinylspiros]

REPLY TO POKER ORIFICE


You'd be cool... but you'd likely be wrong too. (remember that other thread where they mentioned 'ICM' ... might want to investigate that a tad further... just sayin' )
will do PO, will do. i took a look at it and felt like it was tooo complex.and someone said its possible to go without so i got kinda happy. i am definitely going to take another look at it. but generally when it comes down to a 3way table with high blinds and a ball busting chip leader. i do like to try to hold my ground. esp if my stack is shrinking enough to make me worry.

 

[LD1977]

OK so I am the only one who LOVES maniac big stacks?

 

[aircasar9876]

needagf why would you of folded 99 but called jj? u kind of explain why its dumb not to call in your next post but against the big stack where he pushes every hand 99 is just as strong as jj almost everytime. its not like you would expect him to have 1010 and you dont put him on 2 overs obviously if u would call jj but u are putting him on 2 overs if you fold 99...i thnk a race is worst case scenario with both hands but more likely 1 over 1 under.

 

[MasterOfDisaster]

OK so I am the only one who LOVES maniac big stacks?

We all love each other here

 

[BlackMoth5]

I would've called with the J's initially and pretty much anytime if it's just me & him and I have a read that he's bullying. I would only call with the 9's if it was after I figured out he was shoving everytime.

 

[kwhilborn]

I sometimes love chip leaders who try to bully because it gives me a good chance to double up.

If they push all in then treat it like it was bullets, but when they start doing this every time they are just losing trust.

I would have called with 99 or jj or even AQ or better if I think they are just shoving all the time or are acehuggers.

Even bad hands win 1/3 (rough guess) of the time so a huge chip leader can literally keep going all in against everyone and absorb peoples chips along the way. I saw a guy do straight all ins on any K or A or pair for a good 20 minutes and he was destroying everyone.

If I am chip leader I look at who I can double up against.

If I have 100k in chips and everyone else at my table is sitting at 15-20k I know they are eyeballing my stack and prefer to sit out and play only monster hands and blinds. Those low stack players are going to be very aggressive to keep their stacks and they are dangerous reads. If they go all in after flop is it because they made a hand or because they cant afford the 2k+ blind.

So to answer this question from OP, I would answer that he look at how the person made the chips. Was it skill or a lucky all-in against 5 players.

I would then have my trust meter deteriorate with constant stealing of blinds and such. Especially in short handed games you need to push back.

Holding off until a paid position might be an exception. If you are 2-3 places from getting paid sit on it until you get paid.

Do not call from tilt. Call from belief that he/she could not possibly be getting bullets every time and your 99 have a better chance than any ace-rag combo.

I would prefer to see a flop with 99, but would be happy to stake it against someone who is bottoming on trust meter.

I would have called with 99