AK near 10BB's

[Poker Orifice]

naruto - your way is...simply put ... wrong.

While you don't have to open shove AK at 15 bb... it will never be incorrect to do so. THe problem with raising is if you get flatted by 3 guys and no ace or K comes. then you are folding and now having say 12bb. in online play just open shoving.. or shoving AK over any previous raises is the 100% mathematically unexploitable play. (Antes or not)

I'd only ever raise it if i thought it highly likely someone goes monkey nuts and jams over me so I can call off.

I'd have to agree with this ^ 100%.

 

[Poker Orifice]

It's not the start of a SNG or tournament and you have around 15BB but a standard raise will put you near or under 10BB's. Do you prefer to raise here or shove all-in when you are the first to enter the pot? How much does your decision revolve around being first to enter the pot? I'd shove against a raise in front of me for sure, but what do you like to do when you're first?

This is a good post btw... because we're sitting in kind of an awdward spot.. ie. let's say the blinds are 50/100 and we've got 15bb's When we open shove from EP we're basically playing our hand face up.. but is this such a bad thing? .. knowing you'll get looked up more frequently by low pp's in blinds. I don't think so.

 

[Pascal-lf]

Let's say your on a tight table - Villains will only call with a PP of JJ+ or AQ+ (AQo, AQs, AKo, AKs)

Against this range you're flipping at pretty much exactly 50/50, jamming folds out hands such as 22-99 which gives them more of an advantage at about 55/45 so jamming is very good

 

[Mr Whatever]

come on, u gotta tell me more. if its a sng or tourn whats the payout, how many ppl are left, what position are u in at the table? what size pot could i get by shoving or raising a little -are antes involved?, are my opponents more prone to folding to odd bets like 2749 or whatever
or do they call all ins to gamble ?

either way, allen cunningham's vid on middle stage strat at full tilt academy gives his opinion on how to play 10bbs

 

[cardplayer52]

Let's say your on a tight table - Villains will only call with a PP of JJ+ or AQ+ (AQo, AQs, AKo, AKs)

Against this range you're flipping at pretty much exactly 50/50, jamming folds out hands such as 22-99 which gives them more of an advantage at about 55/45 so jamming is very good

if the villains are calling this tight you could shove a lot wider than AK here. it's more about fold equity in these spots. so if 95% of the time the villian folds then the other 5% of the time he holds JJ+ AQ+(even less than that if we hold AK for blockers). But again I don't think insta shoving AK w/15bbs is the best possible play here. Especially when I got reads that a villian will 3bet shove w/hands like A7o.

 

[Pascal-lf]

I was giving worst case scenario of a very tight table.

 

[TooTricky]

I'm sorry but I have to disagree with this 100%, You never want to shove 15 BB's deep with AK unless the Blinds are Really worth while to steal with it...

It all really depends on the Table Aggression, Table Loos-nesity, and alot of different Factors...I mean for me, AK utg early in an MTT Depends if it's a rebuy or not...If It's a Rebuy I'm not playing it slow (Why), because PPl Tend to play alot Looser in Rebuys rather then in Freezeouts..Yet if it's a Freeze out Early on PPL tend to play alot tighter there-fore I'm playing the AK as a trap/check raise/Check Call hand, and there-fore trying to keep the pot small early on, rather then let it get so Big, that I'd have to call it...

I mean Everyone has there Opionion but Shoving AK, with 15BB's deep is just not my way..

Of course it's situational, but I gotta agree with this. If your in early position, it's about mid tournament, and you shove most ppl won't call you. If you want to maximize the pot in case you hit on the flop, then you should raise 3-5 BBs depending on how loose the players are and blinds.

 

[Poker Orifice]

Of course it's situational, but I gotta agree with this. If your in early position, it's about mid tournament, and you shove most ppl won't call you. If you want to maximize the pot in case you hit on the flop, then you should raise 3-5 BBs depending on how loose the players are and blinds.

Do you play online SNG's or MTT's? By shoving you'll actually get looked up more often by low to mid. pp's... overshoving is somewhat playing your hand face up & you'll get called often(especially in MTT play obv.. but this is STT/SNG that OP is referring to).

So by raising 5x pre what are you suggesting we do when called & we wiff the flop (and now have < pot-sized bet in our stack)? What if there's 2 callers pre? We raise pre & chk/f flop? We can't cbet/fold obv. This is the reason why OP has posted this situation (imo).. because it's an awkward situation but as was mentioned above.. it'll always +EV to put the pile in.

 

[salim271]

"new motto" - - learn less & just suckout more" - also, try to 'unlearn'.. so you don't even know you're getting it in bad.

^This . I think you guys are thinking wayyy too much into this. Just shove it in with 15BBs... it makes no sense to be folding AK here, and you can't limp (LIMPING = EVIL) and you can't make any kind of standard raise. SHOVE.

Will people call you down? Yes, but you won't be behind (mostly), and after a 1-2 rotations (very fast midway/bubble in an SnG) you'll lose any fold equity you possibly had anyways.

Possible outcomes after shove:

- Everyone folds, you get blinds.

- One person calls, you're only behind AA and KK, everything else you're about flipping or better. If you win, double up, if not... no one has 100 percent cashing percentages.

- More than one person calls.. will only happen in very rare situations that you can't control if you're the first raising in the pot. In situations like this its not unlikely that they first guy will turn over AJ+ and the other will turn QQ+ over.

 

[kmixer]

I would think this would be a shove. We don't want callers here and and would be more than happy to pick up the blinds. If we do get a caller we are 65% against a random hand and if we are suited closer to 67%.

Shove

 

[salim271]

I would think this would be a shove. We don't want callers here and and would be more than happy to pick up the blinds. If we do get a caller we are 65% against a random hand and if we are suited closer to 67%.

Shove

I just think I should point out that if we're called its not going to be a random hand (no one is calling with 23o when any form of money is involved), so 65% is a little high for when I'm considering my chances with AK... I like to think of it as about a flip, 50% shot to double up, and whether its necessary to make the call, or if I can afford to wait for a better spot/hand.

 

[onetime]

Don't know

Don't know about all the percentages%%% but what I can say is that if it feels right to shove by then all means shove away.Don't always count on the numbers because the numbers won't win you the hand in the end.Go with your gut once in a while and with a hand like that who knows you just might win.

 

[kmixer]

I just think I should point out that if we're called its not going to be a random hand (no one is calling with 23o when any form of money is involved), so 65% is a little high for when I'm considering my chances with AK... I like to think of it as about a flip, 50% shot to double up, and whether its necessary to make the call, or if I can afford to wait for a better spot/hand.

Good point.

I guess it would also depend on stack sizes. BB with a large stack might be calling any two. At least they seem to in games I play in.

LOL

We are also 65% against greater than 23 VP$IP. Trust me that is everyone in the games I play in.

Hahahaha

In all fairness though the OP did not state what stake levels we are talking about here either.

 

[kmixer]

I made this play (push all in) with 12bb yesterday in a Rush game and it helped me take down the blinds. I would have to think that I would do it all the time with AK now.

 

[The_Pup]

Don't know about all the percentages%%% but what I can say is that if it feels right to shove by then all means shove away.Don't always count on the numbers because the numbers won't win you the hand in the end.Go with your gut once in a while and with a hand like that who knows you just might win.

I'd like to play you, onetime. Lots of times.

 

[bonflizubi]

whit, AA, KK, QQ, minirais and A10+, K10+, QJ+ shove allin

This is the most horrific advice in this thread's entirety.

PLay it that way and you might as well type your hand into the chatbox first.

You want to shove ALL those hands. Why? because as stated earlier, people will see it as weak and look you up light. a minraise from a shortstack? SOSOSOS a monster is coming!

balance your range by shoving ALL hands you are willing to get in here.

Also, other than your stack, everyone in this thread has missed teh MOST important factor in deciding what hand range to shove... your position. Are you UTG? MP? CO? shoving ranges will vary and widen significantly the closer to the button you get.

Also, as antes hit, the wider you can shove...and it's a heck of a lot wider than any of you here are suggesting.

 

[No Brainer]

Also, as antes hit, the wider you can shove...and it's a heck of a lot wider than any of you here are suggesting.

How wide are you willing to start the push/fold move with antes? I generally use 13-15bbs but am interested to hear what other people think/use...

 

[salim271]

Also, other than your stack, everyone in this thread has missed teh MOST important factor in deciding what hand range to shove... your position. Are you UTG? MP? CO? shoving ranges will vary and widen significantly the closer to the button you get.

Also, as antes hit, the wider you can shove...and it's a heck of a lot wider than any of you here are suggesting.

Position only matters in this situation if you want a fold because its a shove, so basically it should just be noted that the closer to the button the more likely your opponents won't have a hand.

OP didn't discuss range so I don't think its pertinent to the question... our range at least, since its only about AK. Villain's range to call us would depend on primarily on how loose they are... and their stack size, how many people there are in the pot already, and antes/blinds.

Stack size: Bigger stack, wider range. The looser they are the wider their range as well.

How many people in the pot: Big stack may be enticed to enter the pot with something like Ax with two people already all in if they were loose... but otherwise I think any opponent would be folding everything but TT+ and AJ+, again it depends on how loose they are, I've seen some pretty stupid hands coming in and cracking big hands in a 3 way pot.

Antes/blinds: As you said, the larger the antes or blinds the larger the pot, the more enticing it is to come in. Really stealing antes and blinds is only effective if you're shoving to do so with 15BB. Our range (even though it doesnt apply to OP) does increase, and is also affect by position (closer to button). I think with antes and blinds rising, our opponent won't be calling unless they're loose/big stacked, their range decreases unless they figure we might be stealing. If they think we're stealing I would say its possible to make a hero call with something like 77+... or A9o+, A7+.

 

[bonflizubi]

How wide are you willing to start the push/fold move with antes? I generally use 13-15bbs but am interested to hear what other people think/use...

I'll shove 20+ at times, depending on position and the players remaining in the hand - their stacks and how tight/loose they are. with antes i'll shove more BB of course.

And I might do it with junk, or I might do it with AA or KK (love button shoving AA, KK since they will get called very light since it's the button.)

If we are near a bubble I'll even shove wider and with deeper stacks to abuse a tight/scared table. Also, shoving rather than raising really confuses people that don't know why you are doing it. In some smaller buyin tournies (say $10 or less) I'll even open shove 40+ with AA KK on occasion knowing that there is an idiot who will come along often enough to make it profitable

 

[bonflizubi]

Position only matters in this situation if you want a fold because its a shove, so basically it should just be noted that the closer to the button the more likely your opponents won't have a hand.

OP didn't discuss range so I don't think its pertinent to the question... our range at least, since its only about AK. Villain's range to call us would depend on primarily on how loose they are... and their stack size, how many people there are in the pot already, and antes/blinds.

Stack size: Bigger stack, wider range. The looser they are the wider their range as well.

How many people in the pot: Big stack may be enticed to enter the pot with something like Ax with two people already all in if they were loose... but otherwise I think any opponent would be folding everything but TT+ and AJ+, again it depends on how loose they are, I've seen some pretty stupid hands coming in and cracking big hands in a 3 way pot.

Antes/blinds: As you said, the larger the antes or blinds the larger the pot, the more enticing it is to come in. Really stealing antes and blinds is only effective if you're shoving to do so with 15BB. Our range (even though it doesnt apply to OP) does increase, and is also affect by position (closer to button). I think with antes and blinds rising, our opponent won't be calling unless they're loose/big stacked, their range decreases unless they figure we might be stealing. If they think we're stealing I would say its possible to make a hero call with something like 77+... or A9o+, A7+.

half of the advice above is backwards.

Big stacks don't necessarily call looser. While they want to increase their stack, they don't want to punt it off either. Wht will affect their calling range is their knowledge of proper calling ranges and their read on what you r shoving range is.

-Big stack calling off with Ax after 2 ar alrady in the pot is borderline stupid unless it is AQ+, AJss+ at minimum. Anything smaller Ax would be throwing away money unless they have 100bb and you both have 10bb and they just want to make a dumb gamble, since 1 or more of the allins likely has an ace already. 89dd would be a smart call here. But not Ax

-as antes grow, calling ranges should WIDEN not shrink. The bigger the % of the blinds the antes are, the juicier the pot. What SHOULD most greatly influence their decision is the size of their stack, the size of ours.. and the number of people yet to act when it gets to the villain... and the stack sizes behind.

-Lastly- when I shove, I'm fine with a call, with whatever hand I am shoving. I assume i usually get just the blinds and antes, but if i get called and win, I get a double-up plus. That's why I am not shoving worse than what the effective nash equilibrium hands are unless it's a tight table.. and shoving tighter than nash at a loose one.

Then again, if yo uare playing micros noone has a clue about any of this stuff, so OP should just shove the AK and get called by worse more often than not.. and therefore double up more often than not.

 

[JEP712]

With 15BB, I would prefer to raise about 2.5x to 3x the BB depending on position and stack sizes. If the blinds are worth stealing and you're at cutoff to button, then a shove would be ok.

The worst thing is when you have callers and you're left on a flop with out an A or K. Getting in your stack with AK preflop generally isn't that bad, but it all depends on the situation.

 

[FereZ]

I'd play it on all time,raise or shove, never limp. Expect there is like 3 pushers behind you, then ur behind.

 

[ph_il]

Lets not forget how much we're losing by not shoving when our opponents are calling with much weaker hands. We race against 22-QQ, 60/40 against non-paired hands w/o and ace, over 70/30 against Ax hands, and are only behind KK-AA. I'd happily get it in with AK and 15 big blinds. At the micros, a lot of players are calling with much weaker hands that you should want to get in there all the time.

If you just raise PF, say 3 BBs and your opponent calls with AJ. They're missing the flop a lot of times and a C-bet will usually get a fold. Sure you pick up a 7.5 BB pot, but you're missing on 12 BBs that your opponent may have called off if you had shoved.

Also, you keep out of odd situations where an opponent shoves on a dry flop and force you into a decision.

 

[NCfoldem]

I agree with those that say it depends. It sounds like we all pretty much agree that folding probably isn't a good idea. Then again, I have seen players make a big raise and after having sat at the table with them for a while, I know they have A's. All of a sudden AK doesn't look very good. Hmmm. Well that's not common anyway. Since you're short stacked, be prepared to shove with the AK. Know your opponents. If it's in a MTT like the kind I play (cheap), then you'll go all-in, 3 people will call you, the guy with the T 8 o will win the main pot, the guy with the pocket 2's will win the side pot, and you'll be watching "Bones" for the next hour.

 

[salim271]

half of the advice above is backwards. Thanks.

Big stacks don't necessarily call looser. While they want to increase their stack, they don't want to punt it off either. Wht will affect their calling range is their knowledge of proper calling ranges and their read on what you r shoving range is. I didn't say they would call looser, I said if they were loose they would call more with less. The larger the stack the wider the range is obvious... if you're big stacked with AT you're more likely to call a shove than if you were a medium or short stack, especially if the person looks like they're stealing. hence the phrase 'don't mess with the big stack.'

-Big stack calling off with Ax after 2 ar alrady in the pot is borderline stupid unless it is AQ+, AJss+ at minimum. Anything smaller Ax would be throwing away money unless they have 100bb and you both have 10bb and they just want to make a dumb gamble, since 1 or more of the allins likely has an ace already. 89dd would be a smart call here. But not Ax I didn't say a normal big stack would make this play... I said an loose bigstack would.

-as antes grow, calling ranges should WIDEN not shrink. The bigger the % of the blinds the antes are, the juicier the pot. What SHOULD most greatly influence their decision is the size of their stack, the size of ours.. and the number of people yet to act when it gets to the villain... and the stack sizes behind. I suppose the call range will only be widened if the amount being shoved all in is close to the blinds/antes anyways (i.e shoving last 3700 in with 2000/1000 antes), otherwise average stack's calling range should not be increasing... their shoving range would be. Unless they assume you're stealing, possibly because you've made the move before.

-Lastly- when I shove, I'm fine with a call, with whatever hand I am shoving. I assume i usually get just the blinds and antes, but if i get called and win, I get a double-up plus. That's why I am not shoving worse than what the effective nash equilibrium hands are unless it's a tight table.. and shoving tighter than nash at a loose one. I really don't see how you think people are calling you with crap midway through a tournament or SnG, I would think that if you're stealing you aren't doing it with a hand that you want people to call you down with, otherwise how is it a steal? If you shove with aces and no one calls, is it a steal? You had a legitimately good preflop hand. If you shove with A9s thats a steal, and you should be worried imo if someone calls you down.

Then again, if yo uare playing micros noone has a clue about any of this stuff, so OP should just shove the AK and get called by worse more often than not.. and therefore double up more often than not. Did you think OP was talking about playing 100 dollar buyin SnGs asking this question? Of course he's talking about microstakes.

I dont see how my info was backwards. I don't even really know how advice can be backwards. I talked about their calling range vs. our shoving range.