B
BigThingWithHolesInIt
Rock Star
Silver Level
Apparently you missed this:
KMcoyote3 said:
A check-raise is very commonly a bluff heads-up on a flop like that. So everyone else is right: there is no way you can ever fold your AK.
Apparently you missed this:
A check-raise is very commonly a bluff heads-up on a flop like that. So everyone else is right: there is no way you can ever fold your AK.
Kountess
Enthusiast
Silver Level
No its called "Trapping" it has happened to me a lot and thats how most get their chip stack!!
cjatud2012
¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Silver Level
There's zero chance I'm folding this here, and here's why: his range is MUCH wider than just 88 and K8.
Most players that are capable of higher than level 1 thinking (may not be many of these in a $4.40 RUSH tourney, but just sayin') will realize than a KK8 flop doesn't connect with very many hands. So this increases the value of pocket pairs, especially 99-QQ and AA, since it's so unlikely for their opponent to have a K. Other more gutsy players will even fight back against the player with initiative with complete air. That is, if a player in late position is making a routine flop c-bet on this type of board, since it's hard to connect on this board, they will often fold to a check-raise.
So, to account for this, let's run our equity against a possible range of Kx, 55-AA (the 55-77 is also meant to account for some of the bluffs we can expect to run into):
ProPokerTools Hold'em Simulation
93,060 trials (Exhaustive)
board: K:heart:K:spade:8:diamond:
KdAc 81.38% (70,623 wins, 10,218 ties)
K*, 55-AA 18.62% (12,219 wins, 10,218 ties)
Knowing this, we are literally throwing away money by folding in these types of spots. Can't argue with concrete numbers (you could even narrow his range further and you can see that you'll pretty much never be an underdog in this spot).
Most players that are capable of higher than level 1 thinking (may not be many of these in a $4.40 RUSH tourney, but just sayin') will realize than a KK8 flop doesn't connect with very many hands. So this increases the value of pocket pairs, especially 99-QQ and AA, since it's so unlikely for their opponent to have a K. Other more gutsy players will even fight back against the player with initiative with complete air. That is, if a player in late position is making a routine flop c-bet on this type of board, since it's hard to connect on this board, they will often fold to a check-raise.
So, to account for this, let's run our equity against a possible range of Kx, 55-AA (the 55-77 is also meant to account for some of the bluffs we can expect to run into):
ProPokerTools Hold'em Simulation
93,060 trials (Exhaustive)
board: K:heart:K:spade:8:diamond:
KdAc 81.38% (70,623 wins, 10,218 ties)
K*, 55-AA 18.62% (12,219 wins, 10,218 ties)
Knowing this, we are literally throwing away money by folding in these types of spots. Can't argue with concrete numbers (you could even narrow his range further and you can see that you'll pretty much never be an underdog in this spot).
O
onemorechance
live free or die
Silver Level
ty bro
atlantafalcons0
Legend
Silver Level
Thankyou for the informative post, although I was already informed.
B
BigThingWithHolesInIt
Rock Star
Silver Level
It's only called trapping if they actually have something. Or did you think that every time the flop is paired, one player has trips and another a boat?
Z
zingbust
Rock Star
Silver Level
Look again, does she look like a bro to you?
Z
zingbust
Rock Star
Silver Level
3rd nuts, both K8 and 88 has AK beat. But since the opponent doesn't know you're holding one of the remaining K's, in his mind, he may be thinking that his 88 or K8 might lose to KK, so maybe you can get him to fold in some of those cases where he thinks his 2nd or 3rd nuts might be losing. A loud "I HAVE THE NUTS" should get them to fold almost every time. I know, ur going to get me on the technicality that the villain is all in in this case. That may be true, but I'm just sayin'.
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TheKAAHK
CardsChat Elite
Silver Level
(1) Not rude, right. He's saying you did right by not folding and that hand was just a cooler. He's right by saying you can't be folding hands such as the one in the example bcause"I think it's possible that there's a slim chance I might be beat". And he even proved it by numbers and statistics, not with annecdotal stories.
(2) For all you fellow CC'ers still rading this post: Please, for the love of god, don't listen to this! You are only trailing two hands. Two hands! That's it. Never fold in this spot.
Sure it stings to be knocked out near the bubble with a AK vs 88 on a KK8 board. It stings enough to warrant second guessing yourself about hands like this in the future, and posting here asking how to get away(??) from huge flops. Relax a bit, cool off (sorry about the bubble bust BTW) and just remember this one little peice of advice: Never fold in this spot against one opponent in a raised pot. Simple as that.
B
BigThingWithHolesInIt
Rock Star
Silver Level
ROFL
Z
zingbust
Rock Star
Silver Level
When Kountess said "the guy up top is kind of rude" and "you have to fold", you were supposed to agree with her instead of disagreeing. That's because she is a real player with real chips she's trying to protect and she's trying to help you guys understand that when you read that your opponent has you beat, you need to fold. Do you guys have any idea who you're dealing with here?
For those that don't know, Kountess is a well-known poker professional here in Las Vegas, has made a fortune both online and at the live tables, both in cash games and tournaments. She has made her fortune from her ability to read other players' hands. She's only trying to help you guys realize that the 3rd nut hand is sometimes one that you need to fold, when you're almost absolutely sure your opponent has the nut or 2nd nut hand. You should listen to Kountess, not the others.
For those that don't know, Kountess is a well-known poker professional here in Las Vegas, has made a fortune both online and at the live tables, both in cash games and tournaments. She has made her fortune from her ability to read other players' hands. She's only trying to help you guys realize that the 3rd nut hand is sometimes one that you need to fold, when you're almost absolutely sure your opponent has the nut or 2nd nut hand. You should listen to Kountess, not the others.
cjatud2012
¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Silver Level
I don't think anyone here would disagree that we should fold in spots where we feel beat (unless we're getting right pot odds obv, but whatever, I digress). However, the reason OP sought advice for the hand is this:
I think considering this, we're lacking the soul read we need to make this a good fold. Our villain's range is just far too wide to ever fold this.
I think considering this, we're lacking the soul read we need to make this a good fold. Our villain's range is just far too wide to ever fold this.
TheKAAHK
CardsChat Elite
Silver Level
And you're what? Her hype man?
This situation comes up so rarely that it's best not to even think about folding. I don't know the exact odds (maybe c9 or cjatud2012 or someone better than me can elaborate on this more),of running into this cooler is, but getting into the mentality of folding hands just because they aren't the pure nuts is just wrong. I can assure you that a second-guessing approach to the game is not what made Kountess, or any other poker-made millionare their fortune.
And what tell, inclination, or indication, in an online microstakes Rush tourney (a tourney where you switch tables and positions every hand) could you possibly tell if you were beaten by 88 to your AK on a KK8 board? Just the fact that you were raised/check-raised? HA! Give me a f***in break kid.
See cjatud2012's post again (#25) for clarification.
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Z
zingbust
Rock Star
Silver Level
Yes, I'm her hype man and have been since 2005. I get a small percentage of her winnings and it's enough to make me live comfortably without ever having to play a single hand of poker myself. I love my job and wouldn't trade it for any other, even professional poker player. That got old real quick the first time I went on a major bad-run back in '04. Bad beats made me frustrated, but it's never frustrating being Kountess's hype-man, cause she almost always wins, cause her reading ability on her opponents is so uncanny.
You guys should all listen to Kountess more and yourselves less.
You guys should all listen to Kountess more and yourselves less.
TheKAAHK
CardsChat Elite
Silver Level
I almost pooped myself I am laughing so hard.
Maybe you need to get a second opinion. Aw hell, you aren't even a competent player, you are a competent players bitch. Maybe you need to listen to our advice. Might help you overcome your frustrations.
cjatud2012
¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Silver Level
lektrikguy
Legend
Silver Level
pretty sure this thread is a level. in before inevitable lock.
You're right. I wave the white flag. 88 is the absolute nuts and I will fold my trip kings from now on.
Z
zingbust
Rock Star
Silver Level
No, you're right and Kountess was wrong. Now I see it your way. I knew there was only 1 opponent and even with 2, the trip kings, top kicker may still very well be best. I was in a nasty mood yesterday, and I saw someone belittling my friend, so I decided to defend her for no other reason than to have fun with my nasty mood.