fletchdad
Jammin................
Loyaler
Aleksei
Legend
Silver Level
In a tournament setting, with M = 20, when a nit 3bets you either ship (with QQ+), or gtfo (with anything else). With a junk spec hand like T8s one of the BEST situations you could hope for is precisely what you got (10 clean outs against an opponent who's not folding almost any of his range), and you still need a ton of help here (basically you CAN ship here if he shows up with AKo, because he's folding that -- it's still a razor-thin spot because you're a 60/40 dog vs his calling range). Without this "miracle" flop you'd usually have had to fold and give up 12% of your stack.
If you like speculating stop playing tournaments. You can't speculate in those past the first level, and in turbos not at all.
If you like speculating stop playing tournaments. You can't speculate in those past the first level, and in turbos not at all.
Michael Paler
Legend
Silver Level
Instead of saying yes/no, lets look at it this way (Things I have learned the hard way, 101);
Preflop call of 3-bet: Not bad. Why? If you fold to every 3-bet, they know you are raising weak. See #4 for the rest on that, however, because you had the wrong hand to do that with.
Flop shove: Horrible. You are:
(1) Out of position.
(2) Looking at a highly coordinated board with a possible flush you don't have. Do not chase a st8 draw into a flush draw. Do not chase top pair into a st8 or flush. By 'chasing' I mean shoving or calling huge bets (1/2-2/3 pot). A check to get info might lead to the guy checking back or under betting, then you have odds to chase or get a free card.
(3) Weak-vulnerable hand. Any of the following hands will/might call your shove or bet-3bet;
8-9 offsuit/hearts (made st8, nut-st8 flush draw)*unlikely button 3-bet pre
AK offsuit/hearts (gutshot st8, 2nd nut flush draw)*likely button 3-bet pre
KQ offsuit/hearts (open end st8, 3rd nut flush draw)*likely button 3-bet pre
Q-9 offsuit/hearts (open end st8, 4th nut flush draw) *unlikely button 3-bet pre
10-10, 7-7, JJ, (made set) *unlikely button 3-bet pre
QQ, KK, AA (over pair to board) *likely button 3-bet pre
You are up against a mountain of possible cards (10 hands) he could have that would kill you, so ask *"what could he have 3-bet with so large?" AK or big pair is the most likely He probably only flat calls with rest, unless LAG.
(3) You only had 7 outs to improve your hand, at this point.(Not 9 - you never count runner-runner on a shove, it is 'the' long shot. If you call to maybe improve since you already have mid pair, that is one thing) 7h-10h-Jd (8d-10d) 3 non-heart 9's, 2-10's, 2 non-heart 8's.
(4) 8-10 suited is not a good raising hand in middle position, even if folded to you, unless you have a good table image and they assume AK or better. Now you know why. While you can open your range in the middle, you opened it a bit much for a raise you would not want to fold to a 3-bet. I would stick to raising in mid pos with stuff like KQoff/s, KJs, QJoff/s, Q10s, AQoff/s, AJs, stuff like that or better if folded to or with one limper. Plus, with 8-10 suited, then if you don't want to limp in and call, fold. He might have instead min raised like you did if you limped and then you could flat call if you want. Yet, you gotta then flop real good, real good as in better than only one pair, even top, to continue with hand.
(5) Just not a scary enough board to bluff at. No paint. Even if there was, who pukes all in with top pair? So, even if an Ace or King had flopped, he would probably still have called. If a K or A did flop and you bet, he will most likely 3-bet or just call. If 3-bet, then you shove, he still calls, maybe. If he just calls, you gotta keep firing on the turn and river, before he honestly thinks you got that A or K, and he is beat. Since you only 2x bet pre and called, he should think that he could be beat. By shoving, you said "top pair or less". He just is not going to believe a set and will risk a flush draw. Problem with all of this? AA and KK were likely button 3-bet hands preflop. So, you would want your bluff to look like a flush draw, and hit that third heart. Even then, would you fold top set to a 3 card flush? Would he? So, not a good opportunity to bluff. Period.
This all assumes he is a good player. If not, then you forget all that; never bluff a weak player.
Just puttin in my $32 and two cents.
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Randall McMurphy
Rock Star
Silver Level
Michael Paler
Legend
Silver Level
Opps...did it again...
Umm...you mean...no. 8-10, your ideal flop is 679 (10 high st8. And its only the nuts on the flop. But they are drawing thin to overtake you, unless flush draw)
With 79J you got a st8, but Q-10 is open ended.
Umm...you mean...no. 8-10, your ideal flop is 679 (10 high st8. And its only the nuts on the flop. But they are drawing thin to overtake you, unless flush draw)
With 79J you got a st8, but Q-10 is open ended.
A2345Razz
Legend
Silver Level
And if we flop a gutshot and 2 overs.....???
I like calling a lot more with suited AK...also, do you think fish calls off with a dominated A?
I dunno, I have made this move before against an extremely call happy fish, but half bc I think he might snap with AJss or AQ...etc.
G
GNARBURGS
Rising Star
Bronze Level
Please don't go by this, there isn't a yes or no answer in poker so don't start thinking like oh I have x amount of BB or my M is x so I should do that.
I think flatting is fine if you can play correctly post flop since villains range is so defined and we are both deep, however being oop and you obviously not being able to play out of position post flop I wouldn't call I would just fold.
In that case you played it horribly.
#YOLO
Aleksei
Legend
Silver Level
This isn't just about stack sizes, this is about the situation we're in, which is: with a medium-short stack, in a tournament, facing a 3bet from a nit, for like 8% of our stack. Nits play their hands kind of face-up, so when they show strength they genuinely have tremendous strength and your options are very limited. Ergo, our choices are: 1) flat and burn a non-trivial portion of our stack the 80%-plus of the time we whiff the flop with spec hands (and ~2/3 of the time we miss with 2-broadway hands), 2) fold, or 3) jam. Given that we have no FE and not enough postflop +EV to make up for missing, flatting seems the shittiest of those choices in that spot.
A
AvaloNNN
Rock Star
Silver Level
When you open with 10 8 from the MP, you basically want to win the pot right there, uncontested, or at least to play postflop in position. When you get reraised like this, especially from tight players, you should fold no matter what. Against looser players it's ok to call from time to time just to show you can't be run over, but against nitts, no need for that. Just fold preflop.
Postflop play, no comment...
Postflop play, no comment...