Would you call it?

[ramorleans]

Hello, what would you do? Am I being paranoid by folding AJo from a 3-bet on the flop? I'm just curious what you would do if you were in this current situation. Would you call that a huge raise? Until now, this board has been in my head, because if I am wrong and he is value betting a draw or lower kicker A, then the outcome of my game will be quite different.

Here is the hand summary:

pokerstars Hand #243408985147: Tournament #3580592830, $12.30+$12.25+$2.45 USD Hold'em No Limit - Level XII (300/600) - 2023/05/01 1:05:19 CUST [2023/04/30 13:05:19 ET]
Table '3580592830 25' 8-max Seat #8 is the button
Seat 1: De4th Note (12385 in chips, $12.25 bounty)
Seat 2: Rus_us8 (34241 in chips, $18.37 bounty)
Seat 3: hotninebling (62989 in chips, $36.73 bounty)
Seat 4: SirLuxemburg (26594 in chips, $24.49 bounty)
Seat 5: ramorleans (29624 in chips, $27.55 bounty)
Seat 6: ProfiYesSiR (10495 in chips, $18.37 bounty)
Seat 7: hiran bass (21990 in chips, $12.25 bounty)
Seat 8: jowidell (9928 in chips, $12.25 bounty)
De4th Note: posts the ante 80
Rus_us8: posts the ante 80
hotninebling: posts the ante 80
SirLuxemburg: posts the ante 80
ramorleans: posts the ante 80
ProfiYesSiR: posts the ante 80
hiran bass: posts the ante 80
jowidell: posts the ante 80
De4th Note: posts small blind 300
Rus_us8: posts big blind 600
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to ramorleans [Jc As]
hotninebling: folds
SirLuxemburg: raises 600 to 1200
ramorleans: calls 1200
ProfiYesSiR: folds
hiran bass: calls 1200
jowidell: folds
De4th Note: folds
Rus_us8: folds
*** FLOP *** [Ah 6d Th]
SirLuxemburg: bets 1182
ramorleans: calls 1182
hiran bass: raises 4343 to 5525
SirLuxemburg: folds
ramorleans: folds [Jc As]
Uncalled bet (4343) returned to hiran bass
hiran bass collected 8686 from pot
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot 8686 | Rake 0
Board [Ah 6d Th]
Seat 1: De4th Note (small blind) folded before Flop
Seat 2: Rus_us8 (big blind) folded before Flop
Seat 3: hotninebling folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 4: SirLuxemburg folded on the Flop
Seat 5: ramorleans folded on the Flop
Seat 6: ProfiYesSiR folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 7: hiran bass collected (8686)
Seat 8: jowidell (button) folded before Flop (didn't bet)

 

[Andyreas]

Hi, a general suggestion when posting hands:
Please use the CardsChat hand converter:

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This is the converted hand and it's much easier to read and analyse:
PokerStars, $24.55 + $2.45 - Hold'em No Limit - 300/600 (80 ante) - 8 players
Replay this hand on CardsChat

UTG: 62,989 (105 bb)
UTG+1: 26,594 (44 bb)
MP (Hero): 29,624 (49 bb)
MP+1: 10,495 (17 bb)
CO: 21,990 (37 bb)
BU: 9,928 (17 bb)
SB: 12,385 (21 bb)
BB: 34,241 (57 bb)

Pre-Flop: (1,540) Hero is MP with J♣ A♠
1 fold, UTG+1 raises to 1,200, Hero calls 1,200, 1 fold, CO calls 1,200, 3 players fold

Flop: (5,140) A♥ 6♦ T♥ (3 players)
UTG+1 bets 1,182, Hero calls 1,182, CO raises to 5,525, UTG+1 folds, MP (Hero) folds

Total pot: 8,686
CO wins 8,686

Jack isn't the best kicker. And he could have hit a set, two pair of a SD/FD.

So I wouldn't risk a big bunch of my stack for this hand. Of course it feels always hard to fold top pair.

 

[ramorleans]

Hi, a general suggestion when posting hands:
Please use the CardsChat hand converter:

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Convert your hand history into text, forum code or view it in our hand replayer (FREE). Paste your poker hands and recreate hands easily!

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This is the converted hand and it's much easier to read and analyse:
PokerStars, $24.55 + $2.45 - Hold'em No Limit - 300/600 (80 ante) - 8 players
Replay this hand on CardsChat

UTG: 62,989 (105 bb)
UTG+1: 26,594 (44 bb)
MP (Hero): 29,624 (49 bb)
MP+1: 10,495 (17 bb)
CO: 21,990 (37 bb)
BU: 9,928 (17 bb)
SB: 12,385 (21 bb)
BB: 34,241 (57 bb)

Pre-Flop: (1,540) Hero is MP with J♣ A♠
1 fold, UTG+1 raises to 1,200, Hero calls 1,200, 1 fold, CO calls 1,200, 3 players fold

Flop: (5,140) A♥ 6♦ T♥ (3 players)
UTG+1 bets 1,182, Hero calls 1,182, CO raises to 5,525, UTG+1 folds, MP (Hero) folds

Total pot: 8,686
CO wins 8,686

Jack isn't the best kicker. And he could have hit a set, two pair of a SD/FD.

So I wouldn't risk a big bunch of my stack for this hand. Of course it feels always hard to fold top pair.

Thank you! Now I fee relieved!

 

[jonaselloco]

Hello brother

I think @Andyreas's analysis is almost perfect.
For me you have to see several situations.
1) is a KO MTT. Undoubtedly CO when you hit such a strong bet is not looking for your reward, but rather has a very strong hand.
Postflop options are , ,, , , or it could be some suited of Hearts that can also include that 6 of diamonds, such as some s hearts or , .
But I really lean towards .
2) UTG1's raise is a normal open raise. Since he folded, surely he may have opened with small pair or some suited draw that didn't work out for him.
Given this situation, in your position I would have put a bit of pressure with , although as @Andyreas says it's not a premium hand, but it's still a good hand either.
I would have raised to 5 bet.
This situation often solves bigger problems for you in the future.
If CO had who knows if he called with his 15 BB before your reraise.
If he called then you should be careful when you see the flop because he's probably hiding something.
And well if you did the reraise, and CO folded and UTG1 went all in for example, then you would already see that UTG1's range was going to be much higher than yours.
Then you should decide on that situation.
3) Many times making a limp call brings solutions and often brings headaches.
Also with the reraise you have to be cautious. For example, yesterday in a CC MTT it happened to me that with from your position I reraised a player who limped in UTG and he had .
He reraised me low to 2 bet and well I decided to go all in and lost.
As he told you many times, limp is a very risky play, but sometimes it also pays off. Especially when you limp with small pairs and flop a set.

Ultimately, I think you made the right decision. The fold was very logical.
The only option to pay is that you see that when these types of hands came, the player always bet big with High Pair on the flop, with a supposed hand like and well you had the kicker higher than on the flop so there could be It was an option to pay a street to see what the turn brought. If he brought the then you were on top. But hey, I still think he was .
If he had with his blinds in those positions preflop it would almost be all in.

Greetings brother and thanks for posting the hand for analysis

 

[ramorleans]

Hello brother

I think @Andyreas's analysis is almost perfect.
For me you have to see several situations.
1) is a KO MTT. Undoubtedly CO when you hit such a strong bet is not looking for your reward, but rather has a very strong hand.
Postflop options are , ,, , , or it could be some suited of Hearts that can also include that 6 of diamonds, such as some s hearts or , .
But I really lean towards .
2) UTG1's raise is a normal open raise. Since he folded, surely he may have opened with small pair or some suited draw that didn't work out for him.
Given this situation, in your position I would have put a bit of pressure with , although as @Andyreas says it's not a premium hand, but it's still a good hand either.
I would have raised to 5 bet.
This situation often solves bigger problems for you in the future.
If CO had who knows if he called with his 15 BB before your reraise.
If he called then you should be careful when you see the flop because he's probably hiding something.
And well if you did the reraise, and CO folded and UTG1 went all in for example, then you would already see that UTG1's range was going to be much higher than yours.
Then you should decide on that situation.
3) Many times making a limp call brings solutions and often brings headaches.
Also with the reraise you have to be cautious. For example, yesterday in a CC MTT it happened to me that with from your position I reraised a player who limped in UTG and he had .
He reraised me low to 2 bet and well I decided to go all in and lost.
As he told you many times, limp is a very risky play, but sometimes it also pays off. Especially when you limp with small pairs and flop a set.

Ultimately, I think you made the right decision. The fold was very logical.
The only option to pay is that you see that when these types of hands came, the player always bet big with High Pair on the flop, with a supposed hand like and well you had the kicker higher than on the flop so there could be It was an option to pay a street to see what the turn brought. If he brought the then you were on top. But hey, I still think he was .
If he had with his blinds in those positions preflop it would almost be all in.

Greetings brother and thanks for posting the hand for analysis

Wow! Thank you for a detailed analysis with the most possible scenarios that could go wrong. Yes, you might be right that I should open a raise pre-flop, but I'm just trying to be more careful since that MTT is so hot and I'd like to hit the bounty of everyone! If different MTTs were used, maybe my play could go the other way around.

See the screenshot below my current table! I hit the nut straight to the bottom A on the flop, and my opponent raised almost half of my stack, probably 25BB. I shoved, and he called his top pair 5 and hit his backdoor flush! Hahahaha, it's really hard to beat variance!

 

[jonaselloco]

Wow! Thank you for a detailed analysis with the most possible scenarios that could go wrong. Yes, you might be right that I should open a raise pre-flop, but I'm just trying to be more careful since that MTT is so hot and I'd like to hit the bounty of everyone! If different MTTs were used, maybe my play could go the other way around.

See the screenshot below my current table! I hit the nut straight to the bottom A on the flop, and my opponent raised almost half of my stack, probably 25BB. I shoved, and he called his top pair 5 and hit his backdoor flush! Hahahaha, it's really hard to beat variance!

For nothing brother, whenever we can help we do it.

Ufff what a difficult hand brother.

That hand is a typical Omaha player play, I mean your opponent.

You open your hand and have the goodness that your straight goes down on the flop.
But to know. If I were your opponent I would have gone all in too

Look carefully, that when he sees the flop he doesn't have the winning hand.
But the amount of odds he has for the next 2 streets is hellish.

In those hands you have to pray that he doesn't cover his odds, since you have no more odds to improve than the winning hand you have on the flop.

In flop

in turn

your only possible improvement could have been 2 clubs on the next 2 streets. Not many more than that.

Very difficult hand.

Greetings brother and thanks for answering

 

[finaltable1]

that was OUCH against 4h5h..

 

[ramorleans]

For nothing brother, whenever we can help we do it.

Ufff what a difficult hand brother.

That hand is a typical Omaha player play, I mean your opponent.

You open your hand and have the goodness that your straight goes down on the flop.
But to know. If I were your opponent I would have gone all in too

Look carefully, that when he sees the flop he doesn't have the winning hand.
But the amount of odds he has for the next 2 streets is hellish.

In those hands you have to pray that he doesn't cover his odds, since you have no more odds to improve than the winning hand you have on the flop.

In flop

in turn

your only possible improvement could have been 2 clubs on the next 2 streets. Not many more than that.

Very difficult hand.

Greetings brother and thanks for answering

How can you create this kind of odds? What program? As it might improve my decision-making statistically, I love to check it.

 

[kon44]

Converted your hand, I couldn’t look at it like that lol

PokerStars, $24.55 + $2.45 - Hold'em No Limit - 300/600 (80 ante) - 8 players
Replay this hand on CardsChat

hotninebling (UTG): 62,989 (105 bb)
SirLuxemburg (UTG+1): 26,594 (44 bb)
ramorleans (MP): 29,624 (49 bb)
ProfiYesSiR (MP+1): 10,495 (17 bb)
hiran bass (CO): 21,990 (37 bb)
jowidell (BU): 9,928 (17 bb)
De4th Note (SB): 12,385 (21 bb)
Rus_us8 (BB): 34,241 (57 bb)

Pre-Flop: (1,540) Hero (ramorleans) is MP with J♣ A♠
1 fold, SirLuxemburg (UTG+1) raises to 1,200, ramorleans (MP) calls 1,200, 1 fold, hiran bass (CO) calls 1,200, 3 players fold

Flop: (5,140) A♥ 6♦ T♥ (3 players)
SirLuxemburg (UTG+1) bets 1,182, ramorleans (MP) calls 1,182, hiran bass (CO) raises to 5,525, SirLuxemburg (UTG+1) folds, ramorleans (MP) folds

Total pot: 8,686
hiran bass (CO) wins 8,686

 

[kon44]

Wow! Thank you for a detailed analysis with the most possible scenarios that could go wrong. Yes, you might be right that I should open a raise pre-flop, but I'm just trying to be more careful since that MTT is so hot and I'd like to hit the bounty of everyone! If different MTTs were used, maybe my play could go the other way around.

See the screenshot below my current table! I hit the nut straight to the bottom A on the flop, and my opponent raised almost half of my stack, probably 25BB. I shoved, and he called his top pair 5 and hit his backdoor flush! Hahahaha, it's really hard to beat variance!

What a dirty river against the 45h.... savage 🤯

 

[kon44]

And in reference to your hand and the 3Bet, I’d have folded there. It’s very unlikely his bluffing there given the action, his protecting a hand that is in my opinion miles ahead of you. I’d say 2 pair at a minimum.

 

[ramorleans]

And in reference to your hand and the 3Bet, I’d have folded there. It’s very unlikely his bluffing there given the action, his protecting a hand that is in my opinion miles ahead of you. I’d say 2 pair at a minimum.

I agree with you, but let's say it's just the two of us; then I would have thought that he was bluffing. But still, it's very unlikely to bluff out of nowhere given the stakes that we're in.

 

[Risto234]

I can call everything so yes

 

[kon44]

I agree with you, but let's say it's just the two of us; then I would have thought that he was bluffing. But still, it's very unlikely to bluff out of nowhere given the stakes that we're in.

That’s another story and alters the dynamics massively had it been, but something you shall never know alas. Heads up, would you have bet? Check raised? He on the other hand may not have seen the need to get you out of the pot so early in the hand. Whatever he was holding needed protected from 2 other hands, against 1 he could milk some rather than kill it there then. He dropped a 3rd of his stack into that raise, unless you know the player it woulda have Tobermory next level ballsy to pull that move like that. You shouldn’t have let this one hand trouble you, there always plenty to follow and even more behind. You kept hold of your tidy stack, with luck you made a decent cash.

 

[ramorleans]

That’s another story and alters the dynamics massively had it been, but something you shall never know alas. Heads up, would you have bet? Check raised? He on the other hand may not have seen the need to get you out of the pot so early in the hand. Whatever he was holding needed protected from 2 other hands, against 1 he could milk some rather than kill it there then. He dropped a 3rd of his stack into that raise, unless you know the player it woulda have Tobermory next level ballsy to pull that move like that. You shouldn’t have let this one hand trouble you, there always plenty to follow and even more behind. You kept hold of your tidy stack, with luck you made a decent cash.

Or he could have KJh. KQh or K6h? But if I have this draw, I will not commit such an amount. Will he sense some weakness in us and use his position advantage to bluff us? Flush draw won't reraise like that, so I think 2 pair or better is the best hand here that he could have, and he is protecting it against the flush and straight draw and isolating those odds that could beat his hand. So it makes sense now. Thank you for all your insight, guys. I learned so much from all of you!

 

[Sopt]

With the way the hand was played I'd put my opponent on set or flush draw. Could also be flush+gut shot straight draw. Now the question is, are we OK calling with top pair and J kicker here. By calling we make a pot quite huge and with him re-raising on flop already I can see this hand going all in on turn, no matter what drops.
Personally I wouldn't feel comfortable going all in with such hand and board so my answer to your question is NO. I would not call it, even tho we might have the best hand at the moment. There is just too many draws and we could be beat already.

 

[jonaselloco]

How can you create this kind of odds? What program? As it might improve my decision-making statistically, I love to check it.

How can you create this kind of odds? What program? As it might improve my decision-making statistically, I love to check it.

#1 Poker Odds Calculator Online 2024 | Easy & FREE! | CC

The #1 Ranked Poker Odds Calculator 2024 by CardsChat - Easy, Fast & FREE tool for calculating odds for Hold'em, Omaha & more.

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Hello brother

This is the cardschat program to calculate odds or outs as they are called.
Look, I really calculate them at the moment.
It is one of the abilities that you have to have to play poker, especially live, but I use it online too.
I don't use programs or huds or anything like that.
Only my memory capacity, for me that is the best because it gives you a lot of speed especially to think about what steps to follow.
When you play, you not only have to calculate the odds you have in your favor in some hands, but especially what you have to try to know with which hand your opponent is betting.
For that, if you want, go to the cardschat course

Become a Winning Poker Player in 30 Days | CardChat

CardsChat invites you to the 30-day free poker video training course designed to raise your game & play even smarter - Written by Collin Moshman & Katie Dozier.

www.cardschat.com

If I remember correctly, in the 2nd chapter he talks about positions and in the 3rd chapter he talks about ranks. This is essential to try to know what hand you are playing.

And the issue of odds is fundamental. Especially for me who almost spend my time playing Omaha. Both to make decisions in favor, to fold, or to raise, it is very important to know the issue of odds.-

In turn, this is very useful for Hold em. The difference is that in Hold em you only have 2 cards in hand. On the other hand, in classic Omaha you have 4 cards, and in the new variants you also have 5 and 6 cards, of which only 2 of them are used in the showdown as in Hold em.

Well brother, I answered you and I'm going to play for a while. I just come from work.

A huge hug and I am always here for whatever you need.

Have a good week

 

[jonaselloco]

Look bro, I just played a hand of Omaha a while ago and I wanted to show you the odds thing with an example.
The hands came like this

In MP the Deeppocket player limped with 1 BB
I paid from SB
The player Patrick from BB checked

The flop you see doesn't really say anything to me.
There is only a 9 that I make a second pair, there is a possible straight draw on the turn with the 8 that I have, and with the K of diamonds with my AQ there can be a straight draw and if a diamond comes up I can have a draw color.
The only dangerous thing about the hand is that there is a spade flush draw to two streets, which I just don't have in my hand and if it is completed it is a hand to fold before a bet.

We all check, and on the turn comes the Ace of Diamonds.

There I decide to make a bet of 2.2 BB to which no one pays and they fold.

Why did I make this bet??? Because look how my outlook opened up towards the river.

First I'll win the hand almost certainly with

And the odds I have to improve my hand on the river are

13 odds open with my that would also win the hand of color as long as there will not be a possibility of a full house on the river, which even so and everything could also win the hand.

Likewise, I would also have the possibility of a full house on the river with me

This is what you have to analyze at the time of the play.

My regards, brother

 

[kon44]

Or he could have KJh. KQh or K6h? But if I have this draw, I will not commit such an amount. Will he sense some weakness in us and use his position advantage to bluff us? Flush draw won't reraise like that, so I think 2 pair or better is the best hand here that he could have, and he is protecting it against the flush and straight draw and isolating those odds that could beat his hand. So it makes sense now. Thank you for all your insight, guys. I learned so much from all of you!

No problem mate.... but I will add this. There is the outside possibility he is bluffing, but he would either be reckless or have intel and a hud on you to exploit I’d assume in the instance.. If the table is playing more conservatively than the norm, ie. money jumps then he could get a fold out of you with draw equity.... as I’ve as you must have come across the 3/4 stack betters who fold to a fold lol. That said, your better to wait for a better spot in most instances... And that’s dead cert even if you curious. Where you come?