Which was the worst move?

[t1riel]

I was in the Big Blind. The blinds are 200/400. I get dealt . Early position raises to 1200. Small blind calls. I call. I have 2800 left in chips. Early position has over 10,000 (chip leader). Small blind has 3700. The flop comes:

.
Small blind checks. Now, I have been getting the worst string of starting hands in this tournament so I figure I need to make a move since I have a tight table image currently. I go all in on a bluff. Early position laughs as he calls. Small blind folds. I show my cards. Early position shows . Now, which was the worst move? Me going all in on a bluff or early position raising with 3, 5? Reply to expalin why.

 

[Dorkus Malorkus]

Neither, you calling preflop is.

Push or fold preflop. Not sure if you have enough chips for a squeeze play to be optimal here (and EP has too many chips), but it's not as bad as cold calling for over 1/4 of your chips out of position.

I know that hasn't answered your question, but meh.

 

[Coryan]

Early position raise was certainly stupid...but it didn't put his entire stack at risk.

 

[gord962]

Early position raise was certainly stupid...but it didn't put his entire stack at risk.

I completely agree

 

[Stick66]

I agree with Chris. Push or fold pre-flop. The raise and a call in front of you says you better have a strong pair to push. Shortish stack + no pair = I'd fold & live to play on.

 

[Freakakanus]

The bluff was worse than raising in EP with 3/5 and a big chip stack. Having the big stack at the table allows you to change things up a bit and do things like raise with nothing. Sure he may have just wanted to buy the pot but I'm sure he was also hoping for a flop just like this.
Anyone holding A3 will probably be pushing (especially trying to go up against the big stack)

 

[Four Dogs]

lol. I don't know T1, I kinda like both of 'em. I don't think your bluff was horrible. If he has 2 normal EP raising cards, no way he calls this. I'll probably get alot of grief for saying it, but this was a good tournament move. Just bad luck.

 

[Styrofoam]

typical gus hansen behavior from the ep raiser. But I doubt I fold QK suited even to a pf raise from the big stack here - Although, push or fold mentality here gets me. You just got unlucky that he hit the second nuts there. Both plays are bad, but they are also equally good. There is no way he calls that with a typical EP raise here, like AK.

 

[ChuckTs]

Neither, you calling preflop is.

Push or fold preflop. Not sure if you have enough chips for a squeeze play to be optimal here (and EP has too many chips), but it's not as bad as cold calling for over 1/4 of your chips out of position.

I know that hasn't answered your question, but meh.

ditto
took the words right outta my mouth
except i would have worded it "...but it's not as bad as cold calling for nearly 1/2 your chips OOP"
just as chris said, i either push or fold here. you only have 7 BBs and calling a raise PF is not an option.

 

[DukeDrew]

So you're suggesting he re-raises the big stack with KQs, after the big stack opened in early position showing strength? He's borderline pot-committed as it is with a call... any raise and he might as well just go all in given 2400 in the pot gives odds to pretty much anything. I think he chooses between call or fold. I'd call, M be damned, see the flop and then run away.

As far as the raise from early position goes, it's not too bad of a play. Guy is big stack, and if he's been playing really tight, it's a nice change up. If it hits, he's a rich man. If flop is Axx, he's already shown power, so he can continue to shoot at the pot.

 

[starfall]

If you're going to be pot committed by just calling, then you probably want to either fold or go all-in, because at least that way you gain the chance that they'll fold.
As the chip leader I'm presuming that he was sometimes raising with nothing to ensure that he was putting pressure on the short stacks, so his pre-flop raise is understandable, because he's not making it too expensive for him to play poker, but he's forcing the shorter stacks to gamble.
Your all-in was also somewhat understandable, but I'd tend to prefer either the pre-flop all-in to try to take the pot there, or to bet a flop that you'd hit, rather than bluffing with the last of your chips post-flop.

 

[robwhufc]

Tim, now that you've read the responses, is this going to be the last hand history you post where you call when you should have folded / raised?

 

[colin_147]

I dont think the preflop call is the worst ever, I would be more worried about the position of my opponents after the flop. When will I be acting? This would determine how I would play the hand

If you are going to make a move, then this would be the kinda flop you wanna be making that move. You gotta feel its unlikely your opponents will be holding a 3 or a 5 (we now know, of course!) and any (good) player with an overpair will have to consider laying their hand down

The board is unlikely to give your opponent a straight draw and there is no flush draw.

I dont think you played the hand that badly, thought I am sure there will be a few players that may disagree

 

[Coryan]

So you're suggesting he re-raises the big stack with KQs, after the big stack opened in early position showing strength? He's borderline pot-committed as it is with a call... any raise and he might as well just go all in given 2400 in the pot gives odds to pretty much anything. I think he chooses between call or fold. I'd call, M be damned, see the flop and then run away.

I don't understand folks who call preflop raises and leave themselves with crippled stacks in tournaments. What can you do with 4-6XBB if you fold after the flop?

Sorry, got to agree with the preflop push for fold crowd on this one. I have seen far too many players who call with short stacks and try to hit the flop. When they don't (which is 70% of the time), they either fold to push it all in on a bluff! Why? Make the most of those chips before the flop and put the question back to the original raiser!

Personally, if I am 10XBB or less, I am looking for an opportunity to push that stack in. I can't afford to dump 40-50% of my stack on a 30% chance of hitting the flop!

 

[Dorkus Malorkus]

So you're suggesting he re-raises the big stack with KQs, after the big stack opened in early position showing strength? He's borderline pot-committed as it is with a call... any raise and he might as well just go all in

Umm, that's exactly what I'm suggesting.

Do you seriously think calling out of position for over 1/4 of your chips with a marginal hand is a good idea? How few chips would you have to have before you consider this to be a push/fold situation?

 

[Tammy]

While I think that a lot of these comments are "results oriented" due to the fact that we know villain's hand, I do think your first mistake was not pushing pre-flop with this hand. If you've made up your mind to make a stand with this hand, then for godsake man, make an impression!

As it's been said before, just calling his raise leaves you crippled anyway. As far as your bluff...I think that was probably the worst move you could have made. I never think it's a good idea to put your entire stack at risk on a bluff. True, there was no way you could have put villain on 3/5o, but what did you think he was raising with. Even A-high has you beat. If he has AK, AQ, or even AJ, chances are he's assuming you've missed this flop as well and will call you anyway.

 

[spore]

yeah KQs shortstacked, definitely time to push them chips in preflop. Then it's all up to the poker gods from there

The PF raise w/ 35 by the EP was not a bad move. he has a big chipstack, players are probably a bit intimidated by him, he can take advantage of that easy. If he were to be re-raised preflop any substantial amount he'd probably have had to lay it down. but if he just has players limp in, he can bet them out post-flop pretty easily unless they hit a monster.

 

[Chiefer]

holy crap with the two year old thread. lol.

 

[dufferdevon]

it was a good try,but wrong timing lol
gl next time

this thread is over two years old. How did you even find it? LMAO, chiefer was posting just as i typed mine.

 

[mrjohnson911]

While I think that a lot of these comments are "results oriented" due to the fact that we know villain's hand, I do think your first mistake was not pushing pre-flop with this hand. If you've made up your mind to make a stand with this hand, then for godsake man, make an impression!

As it's been said before, just calling his raise leaves you crippled anyway. As far as your bluff...I think that was probably the worst move you could have made. I never think it's a good idea to put your entire stack at risk on a bluff. True, there was no way you could have put villain on 3/5o, but what did you think he was raising with. Even A-high has you beat. If he has AK, AQ, or even AJ, chances are he's assuming you've missed this flop as well and will call you anyway.

i totally agree with this comment.. if you push preflop theres 6400 in the pot, he has another 2800 to call, into a 6400 pot, giving him good odds to call, but i dont think he would spend another 30% of his stack on a max winning chance of 35%... also he knows that he might even put in another 1000 if the small blind goes allin also, which in the end would be close to 50% of his entire stack on 35o....

to the original question though... i really like the raise utg, cause it puts you under pressure and ensures his role as the bully of the table, also a lot of hands you will lay down preflop, cause your shortstacked