who is calling here?

[frisellan]

Stage #1409387440 Tourney ID 4037439 Holdem Multi Normal Tournament No Limit $40 - 2009-01-14 23:06:54 (ET)
Table: 19 (real money) Seat #5 is the dealer
Seat 1 - ZENWEST ($1850 in chips)
Seat 2 - SUNSET99 ($1475 in chips)
Seat 3 - ALL MONKEYS ($1465 in chips)
Seat 4 - HORTBUDDY ($4455 in chips)
Seat 5 - CRZYAZZCRKER ($1225 in chips)
Seat 6 - SOWHATMOFRO ($1955 in chips)
Seat 7 - RELLA13 ($2795 in chips)
Seat 8 - BEV54141 ($1070 in chips)
SOWHATMOFRO - Posts small blind $20
RELLA13 - Posts big blind $40
*** POCKET CARDS ***
Dealt to SOWHATMOFRO [Jd Ks]
BEV54141 - Calls $40
ZENWEST - Calls $40
SUNSET99 - Folds
ALL MONKEYS - Folds
HORTBUDDY - Folds
CRZYAZZCRKER - Folds
SOWHATMOFRO - Calls $20
RELLA13 - Checks
*** FLOP *** [4h 10h Qc]
SOWHATMOFRO - Checks
RELLA13 - Checks
BEV54141 - Checks
ZENWEST - Bets $160

?????

 

[baudib1]

I think reads are really helpful here.

You have to fold because, even though he's last to act and could be bluffing, he's giving you a bad price to draw. He could be doing this with something like Jh9h or KQ, giving you all sorts of horrible reverse implied odds.

Folding >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>raising>>>>> calling

 

[cardsDontMatter]

You have to fold NOW... but isn't this the flop you were looking for by calling preflop? LOL... Why, oh why check that flop???

I mean, come on!! If you know what you're doing by playing KJ out of position, you are playing to see a cheap flop.. and you're not looking to hit your King or your Jack, you're looking to connect with QTx, QT9, ATQ, KJx, that's it.

In a nutshell.. 3 words... semi-bluff this flop!

You bet out 1/2 the pot on the flop, maybe everyone will FOLD!!! Maybe you'll get a caller, or maybe someone will raise you and depending on the raise, you may still get the price to call with 8 outs to the OESD or maybe you'll hit some bluff outs on the turn.

 

[shinedown.45]

Stage #1409387440 Tourney ID 4037439 Holdem Multi Normal Tournament No Limit $40 - 2009-01-14 23:06:54 (ET)
Table: 19 (Real Money) Seat #5 is the dealer
Seat 1 - ZENWEST ($1850 in chips)
Seat 2 - SUNSET99 ($1475 in chips)
Seat 3 - ALL MONKEYS ($1465 in chips)
Seat 4 - HORTBUDDY ($4455 in chips)
Seat 5 - CRZYAZZCRKER ($1225 in chips)
Seat 6 - SOWHATMOFRO ($1955 in chips)
Seat 7 - RELLA13 ($2795 in chips)
Seat 8 - BEV54141 ($1070 in chips)
SOWHATMOFRO - Posts small blind $20
RELLA13 - Posts big blind $40
*** POCKET CARDS ***
Dealt to SOWHATMOFRO [Jd Ks]
BEV54141 - Calls $40
ZENWEST - Calls $40
SUNSET99 - Folds
ALL MONKEYS - Folds
HORTBUDDY - Folds
CRZYAZZCRKER - Folds
SOWHATMOFRO - Calls $20
RELLA13 - Checks
*** FLOP *** [4h 10h Qc]
SOWHATMOFRO - Checks
RELLA13 - Checks
BEV54141 - Checks
ZENWEST - Bets $160

?????

Chuck Ts: Fold preflop. Seriously, stop blowing off the advice about playing inposition and start folding easily dominated hands like KJ, AT, A8s etc until you really know what you're doing OOP

 

[c9h13no3]

I'm calling.

 

[cardsDontMatter]

I'm calling.

LOL.. I hope you're joking. See, if I was a caller who checked, I'd question the positional player's bet, but not your passivity and I'd repop the pot just to piss you off and it would be for half your stack ... and one player in there has you both coverd.

This is a lmped pot. The board has only one draw... you're gonna pay to see it, in my book.

If zenwest's bet was serious, I'd find out .. but if you call my raise on that draw, there, then, I am happy as a clam if the board bricks with a baby on the turn, your pot committed, so, you're going all in if I have anything to do with it.

 

[c9h13no3]

Google: Implied odds. Also couldn't hurt for you to look at the stack sizes. This is like the best flop possible for KJo in a limped pot, only better if it was rainbow, but that's a tiny consideration.

 

[cardsDontMatter]

Google: Implied odds. Also couldn't hurt for you to look at the stack sizes. This is like the best flop possible for KJo in a limped pot, only better if it was rainbow, but that's a tiny consideration.

Google Position.

 

[c9h13no3]

Google Position.

So you don't set mine out of position either?

PS - You're being a pretty blatant troll around here lately. I suggest you cool off a bit. If you can't put up a logical argument, then you should probably not post at all. We wouldn't miss your posts, that's for sure.

 

[Inscore77]

I'm calling.

Agree

Google: Implied odds. Also couldn't hurt for you to look at the stack sizes. This is like the best flop possible for KJo in a limped pot, only better if it was rainbow, but that's a tiny consideration.

Agree

So you don't set mine out of position either?

PS - You're being a pretty blatant troll around here lately. I suggest you cool off a bit. If you can't put up a logical argument, then you should probably not post at all. We wouldn't miss your posts, that's for sure.

Agree.

Seriously, it would not be bad to see the turn. I know somebody said something about a bad price, but we are deep enough I think to see if we can connect on the turn/river, and the bet is really not that large, only 4bb's. Call flop, re-evaluate on the turn.

 

[dj11]

You gave your villain the opportunity to bet you off this hand. He took it.

YOU should have made any bet, even a min bet, and it would have calmed him down. But he senses you do not have a made hand and he put the screws to you.

Of all the cards in play, those 2 flopped hearts are your biggest worry. It could be that the turn 9h completes for you, but it could be completing for him as well.

You blew it by checking, don't compound it by calling.

IMSO

 

[Inscore77]

This is a slightly different situation, but its more along the lines of what I think should be done in spots like these


pokerstars Game #23971570097: Tournament #134477960, $5.00+$0.50 Hold'em No Limit - Level II (15/30) - 2009/01/16 19:16:43 ET
Table '134477960 1' 9-max Seat #3 is the button
Seat 1: shiznatty1 (1910 in chips)
Seat 3: lwb5820 (1805 in chips)
Seat 4: auctionguy (1360 in chips)
Seat 5: Inscore77 (1490 in chips)
Seat 6: JohnHVACman (1010 in chips)
Seat 7: "Hinrichs"80 (2595 in chips)
Seat 8: pokerpil75 (1160 in chips)
Seat 9: Thaumaturge4 (3660 in chips)
auctionguy: posts small blind 15
Inscore77: posts big blind 30
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to Inscore77 [3s 6c]
JohnHVACman: calls 30
"Hinrichs"80: folds
pokerpil75: calls 30
Thaumaturge4: folds
shiznatty1: folds
lwb5820: calls 30
auctionguy: folds
Inscore77: checks
*** FLOP *** [4h 5h As]
Inscore77: bets 90
JohnHVACman: folds
pokerpil75: folds
lwb5820: folds
Uncalled bet (90) returned to Inscore77
Inscore77 collected 135 from pot
Inscore77: doesn't show hand
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot 135 | Rake 0
Board [4h 5h As]
Seat 1: shiznatty1 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 3: lwb5820 (button) folded on the Flop
Seat 4: auctionguy (small blind) folded before Flop
Seat 5: Inscore77 (big blind) collected (135)
Seat 6: JohnHVACman folded on the Flop
Seat 7: "Hinrichs"80 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 8: pokerpil75 folded on the Flop
Seat 9: Thaumaturge4 folded before Flop (didn't bet)

 

[Irexes]

Instacall for me. You hit you have a good chance of doubling up, you miss you have options, depending on the turn, but there's a lot of scare cards you could play off. Also a K may be an out.

If you end up folding the turn you are plenty deep enough for more attempts at building a bigger stack.

It's a tournament not a cash game, chipEV =/= $EV.

 

[c9h13no3]

This is a slightly different situation, but its more along the lines of what I think should be done in spots like these

*** FLOP *** [4h 5h As]

I think that flop texture is a little different, as its less likely for someone to limp an ace. However, the QT4tt flop in this hand hits a limper's range a lot better than a 45Att one does. Thus, I don't think checking is that bad, given 4 left to act. Betting's probably better, but not by a huge margin.

Plus, while the guy is last to act, he is betting pot into 4 players. I think we have some implied odds to draw here, and there's plenty of money behind. With the right read that he enjoyed stealing in these kinds of situations, check/raising is fine too. But I can't think of any reason to check/fold here. After we flop this OESD, we should put some money in, one way or another.

 

[Inscore77]

I think that flop texture is a little different, as its less likely for someone to limp an ace. However, the QT4tt flop in this hand hits a limper's range a lot better than a 45Att one does. Thus, I don't think checking is that bad, given 4 left to act. Betting's probably better, but not by a huge margin.

Plus, while the guy is last to act, he is betting pot into 4 players. I think we have some implied odds to draw here, and there's plenty of money behind. With the right read that he enjoyed stealing in these kinds of situations, check/raising is fine too. But I can't think of any reason to check/fold here. After we flop this OESD, we should put some money in, one way or another.

Ya, I know, but I literally had this hand a couple minutes after I read this thread and thought it was a decent example

 

[spunka]

You have to fold NOW... but isn't this the flop you were looking for by calling preflop? LOL... Why, oh why check that flop???

I mean, come on!! If you know what you're doing by playing KJ out of position, you are playing to see a cheap flop.. and you're not looking to hit your King or your Jack, you're looking to connect with QTx, QT9, ATQ, KJx, that's it.

In a nutshell.. 3 words... semi-bluff this flop!

You bet out 1/2 the pot on the flop, maybe everyone will FOLD!!! Maybe you'll get a caller, or maybe someone will raise you and depending on the raise, you may still get the price to call with 8 outs to the OESD or maybe you'll hit some bluff outs on the turn.

I agree with this, and it's the guy in position that ends up betting, could be a pure steal.

But folding is an option, but then don't play hands like this in the future, because that would be bad EV, as Carddontmatter so rightfull writes "If you know what you're doing by playing KJ out of position, you are playing to see a cheap flop.. and you're not looking to hit your King or your Jack, you're looking to connect with QTx, QT9, ATQ, KJx, that's it."

 

[baudib1]

I don't like chasing the straight oop for a PSB when there's two-flush on the flop.

If we are closing the action, I can see it. But if one of the other two check-raises, we're pretty much married to the pot and have to shove, I think.

The other problem is we have to put chips in even without hitting the straight; if a K or even a J hits on the turn we're pretty much obligated to put in another bet/call.

 

[c9h13no3]

If we are closing the action, I can see it. But if one of the other two check-raises, we're pretty much married to the pot and have to shove, I think.

Umm, why?

if a K or even a J hits on the turn we're pretty much obligated to put in another bet/call.

No, not necessarily. I'd prolly fold on a J turn.

Why do you think putting in 8% of our stack, drawing to the nuts with 6 outs commits us?

 

[baudib1]

If you make a pair on the turn, are you folding for another $250 or so?

As I said in our chat, the problems I have with calling the flop bet:
1. We're oop.
2. He's betting in last position, and could very likely not have a hand he wants to stack off with if we make our draw.
3. We're not closing the action, so a check-raise or even a call leaves us in a lot of bad turn spots.

Even if we get it HU, I don't think villain is paying off very often if the A hits, and especially not if it's Ah or 9h -- I think our implied odds (which are always nebulous anyway) aren't as good as you think.

 

[baudib1]

Also, I think if we DO call and get HU, we are leading out for a PSB if the turn is a heart; the call is then easily justified if we have bluffing equity.

 

[cardsDontMatter]

So you don't set mine out of position either?

PS - You're being a pretty blatant troll around here lately. I suggest you cool off a bit. If you can't put up a logical argument, then you should probably not post at all. We wouldn't miss your posts, that's for sure.

Excuse me? I do not understand how set-mining pertains to this post. Hero has an OESD, or am I missing something in a later post?

I am not trolling on this site and I offered comment prior to my Google position comment in this thread. I am sorry that I don't agree with some of the "calling station" moves I see offered in so many threads.

Calling is weak; you're OOP and who knows what the remaining players are going to? If you're gonna stay in the hand, effing raise.. cuz you're not going to get another bet out of anyone if an A or 9 hit the T or R.

 

[cardsDontMatter]

I'm calling.

this was your first post ... is this the logical argument template I should use from now on?

 

[c9h13no3]

Excuse me? I do not understand how set-mining pertains to this post. Hero has an OESD, or am I missing something in a later post?

Its all about implied odds. You need 12:1 implied odds or so with a small pocket pair to set-mine. Here's the same thing. We have a hand that we're pretty sure isn't best, but we have ~12:1 to draw to our better hand, and that's more than enough to make up for the lack of pot odds that we have.

effing raise

Do you really think we're folding any Q here? If you really want to fold out his bluffs, do it on the turn & give him a chance to fire again with them. Not to mention we destroy all the implied odds we have for some slight fold equity. Not to mention that if we call, others can come along and make our pot odds better. Raising shuts everyone out. Calling is by far the best play here, and its not even close.

cuz you're not going to get another bet out of anyone if an A or 9 hit the T or R.

Um, yes, you really are. This is a donkament, they don't know what the hell folding is, especially if the flush draw misses.

 

[AZE]

calling?... how can you not raise and try to get it in here?! you have an open ended straight draw

 

[c9h13no3]

calling?... how can you not raise and try to get it in here?! you have an open ended straight draw

6 clean outs twice, with 5 more dirty ones. Even if they're all clean, if we're called, we're still not 50% to win. Reserve the high variance plays for later in the SnG.