Whats My Move!!!

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BearInDaHouse

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Can anyone tell how they would have played this hand.
This was at my local casino in a $50 (£25) No Limit Hold'em tournament.

94 Entrants ( Top 9 Paid )

12 Players Left

1000/2000 blinds no antes ( slow structure )

Iam in the big blind. UTG player limps posting 2000 into the pot.

Folded to small blind who calls the big blind. 6000 pot.

I have K-10 off suit and check.

The UTG player and I have around 12,000 chips left each while the small blind is the chip leader with around 45,000 chips.

The UTG player is very loose and passive and folds to strength easily. Apparently has got very lucky on resent hands to still be alive.

The small blind is a loose and aggressive player that is rather drunk at this point and is throwing his big stack around wildly raising and reraising every pot he can, so i am cautious at the fact he has just called this hand.

The flop comes down 3d-10c-4d. The UTG player checks and the small blind bets out half the pot at 3000 chips.

Whats my move? I'll let you know what i did after a few people have given there thoughts

Cheers. BearInDaHouse
 
Jillychemung

Jillychemung

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Given the read I'd fold. You don't have enough chips to flat call or make an effective raise, so it is AI or fold. W/ a drunk chip leader I look for a better spot to get more chips from him. The chip leader could have anything and even if you are ahead you are not far enough ahead to make it worth an AI and if you are behind you would be lucky to have 3 outs since Kd Td may fill a flush.
 
OzExorcist

OzExorcist

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The flop comes down 3d-10c-4d. The UTG player checks and the small blind bets out half the pot at 3000 chips

This bit confuses me - if there's only the three of you in the pot, UTG is last to act. If UTG has checked, it means you and the small blind have checked before him and you're all seeing the turn card for free. The small blind wouldn't have had the opportunity to bet until after the turn was dealt.

Anywho, assuming the action can all be put in an order that makes sense, it sounds like we don't need to worry too much about the UTG player. Though he's starting to get short on chips, and that can change people's behaviour, if you and the small blind both play the pot he's unlikely to join the action without a monster hand. The small blind is the biggest concern.

The pot is what, $9000 now? If you've got about $10,000 behind I think this is pretty much shove or fold. The better action is really read and situation dependent (are there a lot of other short stacks in the game, for example, and how long is it until the blinds go up again?)

You have a very vulnerable hand. As long as your oppoenent isn't slow-playing a monster (JJ+ would qualify in this case I guess) you're likely ahead now, but that could change quickly. Overcards may hit your opponent on the turn or river, or he could be playing a flush draw / ace-rag for a straight draw, or a combo draw (which would be disastrous for you).

If there's a lot of other short stacks in the tournament, or it looks like UTG is getting ready to call the bet, I'd probably just get out of the way on this one.
 
thekazh

thekazh

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At this stage, and if youre playing to win and not just to make the money its an easy shove in my book, been playing a lot of live tournaments the last year and top pair with K-kicker might be the best chance youll get to double your chips. Hands you´d have to worry about like A-10, JJ, 33 ... are not very likely given the fact that the SB is very loose and aggressive. I would put him on A-3, A-4, A-5 or a 10 with a shitty kicker in wich case you´d have him dominated.
 
Jillychemung

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But his read was that the loose splashy drunk big stack just limped this hand. Big alarm bells going off for me when this happens. I truly expect to see that this player had a monster hand.
 
thekazh

thekazh

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Loose aggresive doesnt mean that he only raises with crap and calls with monsters. I see what your getting at but I think that if he was trying to set a trap he would continue trapping on the flop by checking and let someone else make the mistake of betting, I still think this had a low hit or at max a 10 with a shitty kicker. He might have just called because he had the right potodds and the stack to do so, not even 2-3 off is unthinkable.
 
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oazar

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i have only two words for you, my friend:

all-in.
 
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ts69even3

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the sb drunk worries me too... if he has been pushing his stack around all night and suddenly slows down and limps... I would think he has some sort of monster and is slow playing it... shove or fold... but I would go with my read of sb being strong and dump this hand...
 
dj11

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Shove, no brainer.

You started with 12, call here would cost you 3 more, you have some fold equity but calling here would not be good, giving away a cheap look for the small blind. UTG will likely fold here, leaving u and a drunk sb with you sitting on Top Pair, great Kicker.

Even if you lose this hand, the right move here is to shove all-in.
 
robwhufc

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Easy peasy bim bom beasy push.

But why did you check preflop? UTG is loose passive and folds to strength, SB is drunk and reckless, so why not go all-in preflop?
 
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BearInDaHouse

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The Answer!!!

Sorry about the mix up with the order post flop, i wrote the question in a

hurry and accidently added it in that the UTG player checked first?

Apologies

Heres what actually happened

like most of who answered, i pushed my remaining stack in the middle. A 4 times raise of the small blinds post-flop bet. I didn't mention in the question that i'd been watching the UTG and small blind players more than most as they were my direct left and right. As i was playing tight i sat and watched as every time they played a pot it was checked down to the river to show rags or getting cocky they exposed there bluffs. Only once in the 45 mins i was at the table did either of them show a monster when the chip leader beat KK with AA's to become the chip leader.

So i pushed all-in and the small blinds face didn't look happy and quickly said " Why the **** you do have to do that ". I smurked.

Meanwhile the UTG player sat there looking puzzled, playing with his chips, going to push then stopping and thinking. Iam immediatly going " oh no, whats he woken up with ". After about two minutes he finally pushes his stack into the middle. Iam amazed and afraid. I thought i'd made the right move, whats going on. The small blind immediately says " Great, now i've got the odds to call". Shoves in the rest and turns over 2-6 of diamonds
for a straight flush draw. Ok iam beating his draw, great. Whats the UTG player got. I turn my K-10 and he turns over pocket Queens. QUEENS ahh..shit! now iam in trouble. A flush draw and an over pair to beat. I'd have to hit a none diamond 10 for trips or a non diamond king for two pair.
The turn comes a 2 giving the small blind even more outs and the river comes a KING!!! ahh wait its a diamond. The small blind makes his flush and bust out in 11th place. Ahh..well its not like its never happened before.

This isn't a bad beat story, iam not bitter about the result ( ok just a little ).
I just wanted players options on the situation and whether i had made the right move and just got unlucky.

Cheers everyone

BearInDaHouse
 
B

bigriverbluf

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with two diamonds on the flop i would prolly fold my hand especially when he throws 3000 in tha pot of 6000.. i would put him on a flush draw....and only having 12000 in ur hand it would be a no brainer for me to fold.
 
robwhufc

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with two diamonds on the flop i would prolly fold my hand especially when he throws 3000 in tha pot of 6000.. i would put him on a flush draw....and only having 12000 in ur hand it would be a no brainer for me to fold.

lol

:confused:
 
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viking999

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lol

I was wondering why you were so concerned about the SB limp when UTG also limped.

Given that they were both loose and the UTG guy was passive as well, I'd have pushed preflop.

If I had no read on UTG (which is often the case because I'm dumb as a brick), I would have played it the same way and gone bust. No fault getting it in with TPSK and a tiny stack when you're facing only one bet. I don't see why the two diamonds should make us afraid enough to fold. It makes me more confident that I'm up against a draw and not crushed by a better made hand. With that small a stack, you just can't keep folding made hands versus draws because you only have a small edge. Plus, let's not forget that you have 3:2 pot odds on the all-in, making 40% against the SB's range break even (I know you have to account for UTG as well, but that's pretty complicated and I usually just handicap a couple of percent for the addition of yet-to-act players).

As for the proximity to the cash, I would say that you're not actually that close. Unless there are five other players with a stack as small as yours, I wouldn't give up an opportunity like this in order to try playing tight to cash. Not to mention they're probably looking to play tight to cash as well. So the most likely outcome is that all the bigger stacks prey on all of your chips, and all of the short stacks waste away evenly. In summary, unless there are several short stacks shipping it in with garbage every hand, I wouldn't pass up this opportunity to double up (or possibly even take it down without a call).
 
dj11

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OMG! The drunk maniac sb won! Poker is rigged!;)
 
ryaned

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your play correct IMO...UTG limps with QQ???...and the blind squirrel found his acorn
nice thread
 
OzExorcist

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So what actually happened was SB bet 3000 on the flop, then you shoved?

In that spot, yes, I'd probably do the same. It fits the line of a big stack trying to push you out with nothing (the original post made it sound like they'd taken a slowplaying line) and you're probably not worried about UTG.

Though there's a lot to be said for just shoving pre-flop too with that hand, against a loose-passive player UTG and a LAG in the small blind.
 
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Bentheman87

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Amazing how tight some of you guys seem to play with an M of 4. I think shoving preflop wouldn't have been a horrible play here. If UTG calls and has a small pair then this is a great result for you since you're 50% to win. If he has something like ace rag then you're only a very small underdog. If they both fold then you go from 12,000 chips to 18,000 chips. K10 offsuit is in the top 20% of all hands. On the flop this is a no brainer shove. I'd probably shove with a King 4 here too (middle pair good kicker), since SB is loose he could have bottom pair, maybe ace 3, he could have a draw or he could have middle pair with a worse kicker.
 
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marble

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Sometimes we're wrong in our reads....like in this thread. you mentioned from the beginning that you're up against two loose players, short stack, short handed (unless you're playing 12-handed FT), and Flop top pair K kicker. from YOU'RE read the obvious action is to move all in, it's just one of those times where you misread a player holding a big hand, QQ.

it would be unfair to ask the people here what to do if i'm holding JJ vs the tightest player on the tournament chk raising me w/ a AKQ board, then showing 24o bluff afterwards. my point is that you gave us your read and you went with it. now if you meant to say that the utg limper is loose passive even w/ AA KK QQ JJ then you're just SOL at that point =)
 
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ChuckTs

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Amazing how tight some of you guys seem to play with an M of 4. I think shoving preflop wouldn't have been a horrible play here. If UTG calls and has a small pair then this is a great result for you since you're 50% to win. If he has something like ace rag then you're only a very small underdog. If they both fold then you go from 12,000 chips to 18,000 chips. K10 offsuit is in the top 20% of all hands. On the flop this is a no brainer shove. I'd probably shove with a King 4 here too (middle pair good kicker), since SB is loose he could have bottom pair, maybe ace 3, he could have a draw or he could have middle pair with a worse kicker.

The UTG player is very loose and passive and folds to strength easily.

As ben said, easy shove preflop considering your above information. We have good fold equity, a decent hand to fall back on, and we're in desparate need of chips. Especially if there are antes involved this should be a clear push.

As played, postflop is a %100 standard push.
 
B

bw07507

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with two diamonds on the flop i would prolly fold my hand especially when he throws 3000 in tha pot of 6000.. i would put him on a flush draw....and only having 12000 in ur hand it would be a no brainer for me to fold.

Yes, now that you know the results, u put him on a flush draw and even if u could put him on a flush draw its an easy shove as we are a favorite to win. Your post makes absolutely no sense.

As for the whole hand, Ben and Chuck said it best.
 
zachvac

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lol at the straight flush draw saying NOW I have odds to call. If the QQ had folded he'd still have odds to call, he's only a slight underdog (55-45 approximately, assuming his flush outs were pure, which they were) and with the stack sizes he no doubt would have had pot odds even had the QQ folded. As played though I agree it's a tossup between shoving preflop or checking, but when you flop top pair 2nd kicker with that short of a stack you need to be looking to get the money into the pot as fast as you can. And lol at someone who said he may have a flush draw so fold. The OP is ahead of a flush draw, he was even ahead of the straight flush draw.
 
KingCurtis

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i hate when people go "i guess i have to call" its like nails on a chalkboard!!
 
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