What would you do?

[joeeagles]

860+ MTT ($11) down to 34 players. You have 131k, 2nd overall in chips, average is ~38k. Blinds are 1000/2000, Ante 100.

You're in the BB and are dealt JTs, table is 9-handed. Action folds to button who moves all-in (~19k). SB folds. On the orbit before this one he did the same thing, you had 93o and you folded. Pot is ~23k, you have to put ~17k to call.

Do you call this time or fold again?

 

[Kenzie 96]

fold/ Do you have some reason to believe you have an advantage here or do you just feel like gambling?

 

[Dorkus Malorkus]

why on earth would you do anything other than fold with jack high?

 

[beanaddict]

You could post and fold to the last two tables so your stacks not chopped down by someone thats getting ready to go out anyways.
(That way your not tempted to call with crap or semi decent cards)

 

[joeeagles]

why on earth would you do anything other than fold with jack high?

Ok, I'll tell you why. JTs is a favored over PP from 2s to 7s, a slight dog against 88, 99. Its 60/40 against 2 overcards, and 51/49 against 1 over and 1 under. Its a huge dog, 4.5 to 1, against QQ, KK, AA.

I made the call and lost against K4o. Given the circumstances that this villain had shoved the orbit before on my BB, and another time in same orbit on someone else, I had made up my mind that I was going to call if he did it again when I saw JTs. Considering the tourney has 10 min levels, there is urgency for villain to make moves. Harrington's 10 to 1 stack ratio condition is not met here, I'm about 50k short. If I had 200k its a call w/o any doubt, J high or not.

From your answer I understand you wouldn't make this call, and that's fine. I was just wondering what everyone thought about it. Without being results oriented, I'm still trying to figure out if the call was ok or just flat out bad. That's why I posted it, thinking (I guess I was wrong) it was interesting.

I did forget to mention levels are 10 minutes.

 

[Kenzie 96]

Joe, I'm interested in why you felt the need to call this. I have trouble counting to 2 so will accept your numbers but do not see what you are gaining by calling an allin, as opposed say to trying to bully a smaller stack at this point.

 

[shinedown.45]

call this, your way overstacked and this will only cost you less than 10% of your stack.
If it were me, I would call this for sure, you may not be a favorite preflop, but this hand has potential.

 

[Mehman]

i'd fold, theres no point changing your play from the start of the tourney just because you are crusing, i would have just folded and bided my time, im lucky to take out more then 10-20 players in a MTT before the final table because i steer away from a coin flip pre-flop. But on the flip side i can see why you called, i just wouldn't.

 

[aliengenius]

You were not wrong, the hand brings up interesting situation at least. The question you are really trying to ask is, "What is the min. hand I need to see here to call?". You give a good explanation of what you were thinking, and you are headed in the right direction: villain's hand range here is HUGE (note he is down to 10bbs). His previous shoves indicate he might even be down to any two cards folded to him (your scenario is a bit unclear here, so I can't say for sure).

Shame on those who basically posted "you're an idiot" to this scenario. How about you tell the OP the hand you need to see to call instead?

The answer is still, however, that it is fold for a couple of reasons:
1. JTs isn't really ahead of enough here (remember, the "computer hand" is Q7), so you are a bit more likely to be behind than ahead. And since the small stack is all-in you you need to have the best hand at the end to win.
2. With one of the big stacks you really want to be the thief, not the sheriff. Your motto should be, steal and be stolen from. Just make sure it is more of the former than the latter!

This is the time in the tournament where you should be thinking "The rich get richer": your chips are less valuable to you than your opponents chips are to them. A raise of 6k by you is only about 5% of your stack. But for an opponent to call he has to give up about 16% of his stack! This allows you to exert a lot of pressure on your opponents. Also, you can "resteal" from middle stacks if they raise you (especially if they are open raising from a steal position), since they will be wanting the short stacks to go broke before getting into big confrontations w the big stack-- watch as you start to get a walk in your big blind!

Hope that makes sense!

 

[joeeagles]

You were not wrong, the hand brings up interesting situation at least. The question you are really trying to ask is, "What is the min. hand I need to see here to call?". You give a good explanation of what you were thinking, and you are headed in the right direction: villain's hand range here is HUGE (note he is down to 10bbs). His previous shoves indicate he might even be down to any two cards folded to him (your scenario is a bit unclear here, so I can't say for sure).

Shame on those who basically posted "you're an idiot" to this scenario. How about you tell the OP the hand you need to see to call instead?

The answer is still, however, that it is fold for a couple of reasons:
1. JTs isn't really ahead of enough here (remember, the "computer hand" is Q7), so you are a bit more likely to be behind than ahead. And since the small stack is all-in you you need to have the best hand at the end to win.
2. With one of the big stacks you really want to be the thief, not the sheriff. Your motto should be, steal and be stolen from. Just make sure it is more of the former than the latter!

This is the time in the tournament where you should be thinking "The rich get richer": your chips are less valuable to you than your opponents chips are to them. A raise of 6k by you is only about 5% of your stack. But for an opponent to call he has to give up about 16% of his stack! This allows you to exert a lot of pressure on your opponents. Also, you can "resteal" from middle stacks if they raise you (especially if they are open raising from a steal position), since they will be wanting the short stacks to go broke before getting into big confrontations w the big stack-- watch as you start to get a walk in your big blind!

Hope that makes sense!

Nice post and thanks AG, I really appreciate you taking the time to give your opinion, which I always respect. I posted this because I thought it was interesting, given stack sizes, the situation in the previous orbit and the desperation of villain. So, even if you think its a fold, you do agree that its very close. That was all I wanted to know. The whole situation you describe about playing "big stack", I obviously agree with. Its much better to be the raiser than the caller. I need to get out of the bad habit of worrying too much about protecting my blinds and image, particularly when I have a big stack and you don't get attacked often unless its a big hand. This is a leak I should worry about. 4 orbits in a row everyone folded on my BB, then this guy lost a nice size pot, got shortstacked and went crazy, which is after all what he should do.

What I wanted to have opinions on is where you cross the line of calling an all-in, but specifically if JTs, given the circumstances, should be considered good to go. In hindsight, you're right, I should of posted the question differently, the way you described it, instead of mentioning the JTs. As I said in my 2nd post, according to Harrington, you should call an all-in with ATC if your stack is 10 times the stack of all-in raiser. This condition is not met here. But JTs, according to Sklansky's rating (which is for limit holdem, I know that) is the 12th best starting hand. I know its a mistake to apply this to tournament situations. I've spent some evenings studying starting hands with holdem calculators rather than playing all the time, and JTs, although I try to be careful in not overestimating it, I think was placed correctly by Sklansky in his rating (not that I ever thought he was wrong, but some people question that it really is the 12th best starting hand).

Fact is I expected villain to make that move if pot would come to him unraised, and w/o thinking too much, I had decided that if he did it I would call him down. Paradoxically, had he raised 3 BB, I would have folded suspecting a huge hand.

Anyway, I knew it was closer than what most people here think and I understand your explanation on why its a fold, it makes sense.

In your post you say that my scenario is a bit unclear, tell me what you need to know to give a more in depth explanation and I'll post it. I apologize for the format, unfortunately I'm not a computer literate and I still haven't understood how to post hands from HH, so I'm forced to try and remember every detail of the hand.

 

[aliengenius]

In your post you say that my scenario is a bit unclear, tell me what you need to know to give a more in depth explanation and I'll post it. I apologize for the format, unfortunately I'm not a computer literate and I still haven't understood how to post hands from HH, so I'm forced to try and remember every detail of the hand.

Just that in order for me (or others) to more accurately give a hand give you the hand we would call with we need to know a bit more about what you think the villain's range is; that is, if he open shoves anytime it's folded to him, or if he has opted to fold on some occasions (or is you have not seen enough orbits where it was un-opened to him to make this judgment). In other words is he shoving with any two yet, or does he have some criteria like, "any king"...


(ps I also tried to answer your question in the wsop AK thread)

 

[ZSebag]

I agree with most of what has been said here, I think this is a border line hand. I don't think either folding on calling is a particular wrong move here if you have a semi-decent read on the opponent. If this was a brand new table, first hand this the answer would be obvious, however the previous orbits complicate this. I myself would fold this hand. I'm not a big fan of playing the coinflip big stack poker. Yes, if you win the coin flips, it's quite effective, but I find if you lose the coinflips it puts you on a pretty quick road to getting knocked out! My general strategy(although it changes depending on a number of factors of course) like one of the previous posters mentioned is to steal blinds, and assert pressure. I find raising to be alot more effective than calling.

 

[tiltboy]

I would fold here. Table is nine handed i see most players in this situation going all in with A or K high with the chip stack i would not be too concerned about getting involved.

 

[calibanboy]

A good discussion. I Understand all the rationale for the reason people say its a fold.

However I call.

Given the circumstances ( history ) I do not put him on qq,kk,aa. I agree with Joe that he could be pushing anything. You are getting 42.5% Pot odds and risking only 13% of your chips with a hand that stands up well with a villian who is likely to push with anything

You are left with well over double chip average, and Your call sets your table image for you. The fact you know your image to others is a good thing. Ultimately I do not like the "you can fold your way to the final table" aspect that has been mentioned.

 

[young hova]

Yeah Joe, I have no problem with your logic that you like your chances if your up against a small pair, but right here I think the Risk exceeds the reward by far too much. And as you said, I think you also got caught up in the notion of the need to defend your blinds. For one I think defending your blinds is more important in a cash game, than in a tournament. In a tournament, I honestly think you should only be defending your blinds to minimum or weaker raises. going farther than this with marginal hands to big raises will get you in a lot of trouble (unless you have a serious read) but enough of that.

What it came down to was, did you honestly believe that he had a low pocket pair? Your really putting your reading skills to the test here when its not really needed. As you said in an unraised pot to him he's gonna push with ATC and for the most part thats not your problem to worry about. Its unlikely he'll have less than a queen high here if he doesnt have a low pair with 10 bbs. Even if he has a low pocket pair, your hand is still unmade. Your calling off 19,000 chips total, that you gladly could have thrown away creating aggressive image.

Alien said it best, this is the time when you should steal and let your blinds be stolen. Its going to be no problem for you to get your bb back with your stack size. What I like to do when I have a stack like this, paying attention to time of levels and position, I like to avg a one steal blind per orbit, sometimes I might take an orbit off and steal 2 on the second orbit, it all averages out.

I think you just got mixed up in the notion of protecting your blinds and that swayed you to think that he had a low pocket pair, giving you reason to call with overcards, but at the end of the day, whether your read was right or wrong, The risk greatly exceeds the reward. In fact If his stack was only 8 gs I still wouldnt call for 6 gs more. Its too important to keep your stack as big as possible for a double up even though your second place.


Think about whats worse Joe, you have mr ATC pushing in the cutoff on your blinds with his small stack of 20,000 or mr ATC in the same circumstances after he has doubled up through you and has about 45,000 chips to your 100,000. Not only have you put a battery in his back but now, in the event he pushes all in, and you call with a dominating hand like ak, say he has aq and he hits the queen, now his stack puts a huge dent in yours. And though you make the right call there the unfortunate circumstances favored him. If you hadn't doubled him up you'd be losing the original 20,000 just to call him and be at around 100,000, in this case you'd now be around 55,000. This situation really happens.

With a player like this that aggravates you, when I have a big stack I never give this person any type of chip momentum because once you do he is going to be a serious thorn in your side when he gets chips as long as he is sitting to your right, and if you think you have to worry about defending your blinds before it'll get even worse when he's got more chips.

 

[joeeagles]

Yeah Joe, I have no problem with your logic that you like your chances if your up against a small pair, but right here I think the Risk exceeds the reward by far too much. And as you said, I think you also got caught up in the notion of the need to defend your blinds. For one I think defending your blinds is more important in a cash game, than in a tournament. In a tournament, I honestly think you should only be defending your blinds to minimum or weaker raises. going farther than this with marginal hands to big raises will get you in a lot of trouble (unless you have a serious read) but enough of that.

What it came down to was, did you honestly believe that he had a low pocket pair? Your really putting your reading skills to the test here when its not really needed. As you said in an unraised pot to him he's gonna push with ATC and for the most part thats not your problem to worry about. Its unlikely he'll have less than a queen high here if he doesnt have a low pair with 10 bbs. Even if he has a low pocket pair, your hand is still unmade. Your calling off 19,000 chips total, that you gladly could have thrown away creating aggressive image.

Alien said it best, this is the time when you should steal and let your blinds be stolen. Its going to be no problem for you to get your bb back with your stack size. What I like to do when I have a stack like this, paying attention to time of levels and position, I like to avg a one steal blind per orbit, sometimes I might take an orbit off and steal 2 on the second orbit, it all averages out.

I think you just got mixed up in the notion of protecting your blinds and that swayed you to think that he had a low pocket pair, giving you reason to call with overcards, but at the end of the day, whether your read was right or wrong, The risk greatly exceeds the reward. In fact If his stack was only 8 gs I still wouldnt call for 6 gs more. Its too important to keep your stack as big as possible for a double up even though your second place.


Think about whats worse Joe, you have mr ATC pushing in the cutoff on your blinds with his small stack of 20,000 or mr ATC in the same circumstances after he has doubled up through you and has about 45,000 chips to your 100,000. Not only have you put a battery in his back but now, in the event he pushes all in, and you call with a dominating hand like ak, say he has aq and he hits the queen, now his stack puts a huge dent in yours. And though you make the right call there the unfortunate circumstances favored him. If you hadn't doubled him up you'd be losing the original 20,000 just to call him and be at around 100,000, in this case you'd now be around 55,000. This situation really happens.

With a player like this that aggravates you, when I have a big stack I never give this person any type of chip momentum because once you do he is going to be a serious thorn in your side when he gets chips as long as he is sitting to your right, and if you think you have to worry about defending your blinds before it'll get even worse when he's got more chips.

Very nice post Hova, and I really appreciate your comments and the lengthy explanations you gave. What's bad about it is that I agree, it was a bad call, although close. It's a combination of bad habits that I have, and I failed to adapt to the 10 min blind structure, which is uncommon in MTT's. I do like this tourney though (its fast for an MTT), although its a tid bit more card dependent than others because of the stucture, and I'll try it again one of these weekends, unfortunately I can't play it on weekdays. Whats worse is that I went on a downswing after that, was no longer able to keep up with the chip leaders and finished 13th for less than $90, 1st place was almost 2k (shit!!). I'm yet to make a final table in a big field MTT, this was close though.

To answer your question, I put him pushing with almost any 2. The reason I mentioned the small pocket pairs is because I'm ahead of those, and I was letting other posters know that. I didn't necessarily think he had one. I lost my patience in this hand and it was a huge mistake, one that probably cost me the final table and a chunk of money consequently. That's the whole reason I posted it, wanted to know if anyone else would call. Bottom line, I screwed up.

Thanks again for comments.

 

[jeroen44]

fold

 

[ripptyde]

good spot to gamble here (IMO) Normally I am conservative calling off big chunks of my stack with speculative hands (suited connectors, low pp's etc) but J/10s is a pretty strong hand for the most part and has the best possibility to crack another big hand statistically. He knows he won't be in the hand for any more than the guys 17K so overall if you look at the complete situation its not a bad call +EV wise...I say gamb00000L here

 

[young hova]

Thanks for you appreciation Joe. Don't worry about the loss though, we all make mistakes.

As far as the fast MTTs, 10-15 min blind tourneys seem to be the only ones I can play (im yet to find larger timed blinds), I actually look forward to playing the longer blind structures, but some personal advice for 10 minute blinds. Even though they are card dependent, when I have your stack, If its folded into me I'll raise preflop sometimes with ATC into anyone that won't avidly defend their blinds, someone that has more than 7-10 bbs (in otherwords don't have their back up against the wall just yet), and weak post flop players. I think this is key in the 10 min tourney. No matter if they call im throwing a feeler bet into that pot and you still got outs to the miracle flop if they don't reraise you preflop.

all the other players are more card dependent in this situation than you are remember this. You got to exploit there card dependency.

For the most part Joe, when you get your stack as big as yours, I'd raise 65%-80% of the hands Im getting involved with preflop. I also limp around the button more so I can be last to act to bet and so it looks like Im not just trying to bully everyones blinds. Outside of preflop aggression, you should play tight all other times, be careful with making other post flop plays. Thats my fast mtt advice at that current situation.