TT in limped pot; $4/180

[ChuckTs]

Last hand I did this:

Pokerstars Game (?) TOURNAMENT #65282485, $4.00+$0.40 HOLD'EM NO LIMIT - LEVEL II (15/30) - 2007/10/26 - 18:32:15 (ET)
Table '65282485 3' 9-max Seat #4 is the button
Seat 2: Redelboy (3785 in chips) is sitting out
Seat 3: topdog5870 (3140 in chips)
Seat 4: Hero (1425 in chips)
Seat 5: midnightca (3385 in chips)
Seat 6: udunwantnun (1905 in chips)
Seat 7: BigMill44 (1270 in chips)
Seat 8: Irrigonite (1350 in chips)
Seat 9: Zackattak13 (1850 in chips)
midnightca: posts small blind 15
udunwantnun: posts big blind 30

Holecards:
Dealt to Hero [

]
FOLD BigMill44
FOLD Irrigonite
FOLD Zackattak13
FOLD Redelboy
CALL topdog5870, 30
RAISE Hero , 90 to 120
CALL midnightca, 105
FOLD udunwantnun
BigMill44 is sitting out
CALL topdog5870, 90

Flop:
[

]
CHECK midnightca:
CHECK topdog5870:
BET Hero , 225
FOLD midnightca
FOLD topdog5870
Hero collected 390 from pot
Hero : doesn't show hand

...and now we pick up tens.

Pokerstars Game (?) TOURNAMENT #65282485, $4.00+$0.40 HOLD'EM NO LIMIT - LEVEL II (15/30) - 2007/10/26 - 18:33:15 (ET)
Table '65282485 3' 9-max Seat #5 is the button
Seat 2: Redelboy (3785 in chips) is sitting out
Seat 3: topdog5870 (3020 in chips)
Seat 4: Hero (1695 in chips)
Seat 5: midnightca (3265 in chips)
Seat 6: udunwantnun (1875 in chips)
Seat 7: BigMill44 (1270 in chips) is sitting out
Seat 8: Irrigonite (1350 in chips)
Seat 9: Zackattak13 (1850 in chips)
udunwantnun: posts small blind 15
BigMill44: posts big blind 30

Holecards:
Dealt to Hero [

]
Irrigonite: calls 30
Zackattak13: folds
Redelboy: folds
topdog5870: calls 30
Hero : ...


I have no significant reads on anyone yet, and so far I've only played the above hands.

 

[rob5775]

I raise 5x BB (3x = normal plus 2 more BB's for each limper). I don't like limping here with TT against multiple limpers unless you only want to play it for set value.

By raising in position we can still take the pot on the flop (if we have callers) even if overcards come out.

 

[jaketrevvor]

5x BB would be standard raise, but the only problem is that you would have made this move twice in the first two hands you've played, so topdog who was in your AQs hand may have you pegged as LAG so may have pos. either limped with higher pp or just make a play reraising you if he thinks you're weak for this reason. Then you have a tough decision holding just tens, as you are actually a slight dog to his range of hands that he may make this play with (TT+,A9s+,KJs+,ATo+,KQo). You would still be getting great odds on a call but even so pretty much any flop unless you flop a set will be pretty scary and you'd be in a weird place of being almost but not quite pot committed - Yuk.

But again this is all very theoretical and relies on topdog being a pretty good aware player - which a lot of the time is not gonna be the case at these stakes.

Calling here with your stack is defo the safer option (not neccesarily the right one though) and since you are in position you can base the way you weild your stack on what the flop comes out as and the action before you on it. And of course with a lot of limpers you are getting very good value on flopping a set.

jt

 

[ChuckTs]

Raising is pretty standard here. If you stop raising your (almost) money hands because you're afraid of getting pushed out then you're a little too passive. I'm really not quite sure why I posted this one even. Maybe just to get more discussion going.

Anyways, I raise 150, get too many callers, but the flop is pretty:

Hero : raises 120 to 150
midnightca: calls 150
udunwantnun: folds
BigMill44: folds
Irrigonite: calls 120
topdog5870: calls 120

Flop:
[

]
Irrigonite: bets 30
topdog5870: calls 30
Hero : ...

 

[vanquish]

Raises to 180 or somethin

 

[ChuckTs]

(pot is 705)

 

[vanquish]

(pot is 705)

IMO you should try to maximize your equity by stringing both guys along and anything above 200 is probably guaranteed to scare one of them away. Though you would have better reads on them than my speculations, but the only hand we should be afraid of here is a straight, against which you still have a ton of equity if another guy (TPGK guy) is padding the pot too. Most likely we are up against OESD and a TPGK, which we can probably both get chips out of even if it means pricing the draw in for the turn card. Obviously a scary turn could bring trouble, but I'd take that chance if it meant building a much bigger pot to win later if turn brings a blank and you can get both TPGK guy and some drawing hand to commit more before seeing river.

 

[rob5775]

I agree with Van on this. The board has a possible straight with 98 but with the action preflop we can assign a low percentage to someone holding it. More likely KQ, AJ, KJ, AQ, QQ(maybe) or J 10 is what the others are holding (again, I doubt QQ but it's more plausible than AA or KK). JJ would be horrible and 77 great - both fitting neatly into the 30 bet/call.

I like a raise to around 200 here. That's enough to hopefully get someone to call along and build the pot. Calling is not an option with the straight cards out there. I'm thinking the min bet on the flop is J 10, who thinks he's golden right now.

Who bets 30 into that pot? That's ridiculous.

 

[ChuckTs]

Interesting points V and Rob.

tbh I never thought to raise that little; I didn't go into too much depth about their hand ranges. All I was concerned about was getting paid off without giving odds to draws and without shutting out too much action. I guess there really aren't that many scare cards now that I think about it.

Didn't think this hand would spark this good a discussion

I'm still not sure I like a raise that small. If we pop it to 200, we're giving any potential caller about 4.5:1. meh, I dunno.

I'll post results after a few more responses if we get any more.

 

[rob5775]

TBH I don't like laying that fat of odds either with a possible straight out there, but based on the action (bet 30, call 30 WTF!) a half pot raise will likely kill any action. I hate saying "typically" but.... typically a min bet like that is either a monster or a newbie donk value betting bottom pair. The only monster you should be worried about is 98 (unlikely but we have outs) or JJ (lets hope not or we are getting stacked).

If the turn is a scary straight card, like an A or a 9 you can slow down and reevalute. I think you have to bet enough on the flop so someone with a weak draw (gutshot) folds but TPGK or two pair comes along or reraises. You have a monster hand and want to build a big pot.

 

[NineLions]

I don't like the idea of trying to suck players along. If we give them pot odds to make a mistake and they take it, that's different. Although, I think Harrington takes a similar line at some point in Vol 3.

On the other hand, a $30 bet that gets called doesn't seem like either of the first two have a hand so any sizable bet doesn't look like it's going to get action.

On the other/other hand, this table looks pretty weak; all those callers preflop, I say a proper bet, take it to 450 and see if anyone wants to hang with us.

 

[Kenzie 96]

Half pot bet here would seem about right to get some money & info, this early in a 180 seater you probably can get a couple of loose calls, 2/3 pot bet probably still gets at least one guy who doesn't think Sklansky knows diddly.

 

[blankoblanco]

360-420. doubt a J is folding. KQ is not folding. J9 and T9 aren't even folding much.. people play pair + gutshot like the nuts in these. stacks set up pretty good for a turn shove, and it's also a good amount for someone to shove over you now with some illusion of fold equity as well as the illusion that you're starting to be a bully

 

[ChuckTs]

Well here are the results; I still think 200 is a little low and it could leave us with a very sticky turn, but don't hate it. Not that my play was ideal, but you get the point.

Pokerstars Game (?) TOURNAMENT #65282485, $4.00+$0.40 HOLD'EM NO LIMIT - LEVEL II (15/30) - 2007/10/26 - 18:33:15 (ET)
Table '65282485 3' 9-max Seat #5 is the button
Seat 2: Redelboy (3785 in chips) is sitting out
Seat 3: topdog5870 (3020 in chips)
Seat 4: Hero (1695 in chips)
Seat 5: midnightca (3265 in chips)
Seat 6: udunwantnun (1875 in chips)
Seat 7: BigMill44 (1270 in chips) is sitting out
Seat 8: Irrigonite (1350 in chips)
Seat 9: Zackattak13 (1850 in chips)
udunwantnun: posts small blind 15
BigMill44: posts big blind 30

Holecards:
Dealt to Hero [

]
Irrigonite: calls 30
Zackattak13: folds
Redelboy: folds
topdog5870: calls 30
Hero : raises 120 to 150
midnightca: calls 150
udunwantnun: folds
BigMill44: folds
Irrigonite: calls 120
topdog5870: calls 120

Flop:
[

]
Irrigonite: bets 30
topdog5870: calls 30
Hero : raises 545 to 575
midnightca: calls 575
Irrigonite: folds
topdog5870: folds

Turn:
[

] [

]
Hero : bets 970 and is all-in
midnightca: calls 970

River:
[

] [

]

Showdown:
Hero : shows [

] (three of a kind Tens)
midnightca: shows [

] (three of a kind Sevens)
Hero collected 3795 from pot
>>>midnightca said, "nh"

Doesn't look like there was QJ+ out there to me. Really not sure wtf that 30 bet was

 

[rob5775]

Doesn't look like there was QJ+ out there to me. Really not sure wtf that 30 bet was

LOL at the 30 bet. I thought it might be because he's strong.... but that is funny.

The more I think the more 200 might be low... still think on the lower end of 1/2 pot is good. Obviously 545 worked just fine.

I raise 545 and everybody folds.

 

[Falloooooon]

So many people at the $4 180s will min bet after the flop no matter the pot size. It drives me nuts.

Raising to 180 would be awful. I agree with what Kenzie said.

 

[Dorkus Malorkus]

A minraise is obv the best move on the flop.