TT first hand; $16 turbo STT

ChuckTs

ChuckTs

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Feb 2, 2005
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First hand, no reads, no past notes.

pokerstars No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t20 (9 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver Cards)

Button (t1500)
SB (t1500)
BB (t1500)
UTG (t1500)
UTG+1 (t1500)
MP1 (t1500)
MP2 (t1500)
Hero (t1500)
CO (t1500)

Preflop: Hero is MP3 with
tc.gif
,
ts.gif
.
UTG calls t20, 2 folds, MP2 calls t20, Hero raises to t120, CO raises to t400, Button calls t400, 2 folds, UTG folds, MP2 folds, Hero...

Are we clearly beat? If so do we have odds to set mine? If not, then can we push?
 
B

bw07507

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Id say either fold or shove, and I think Id vote for fold. You have plenty of chips to find a better spot, but it is early in a turbo, where u usually find looser players. You could push and probably end up in a coinflip situation, which would be fine, u either have a large chiplead to start or u bust out early and have no time invested
 
pigpen02

pigpen02

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With a re-raise and cold call you ought to be beat. pot odds 4:1, your expectation 7:1 on flop. I don't think implied odds give you enough to call.
 
skoldpadda

skoldpadda

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with 2 others involved, you know you're more likely behind and you need a very favorable flop OOP unless you plan to do a stop and go. Personally I probably fold because even if the flop comes all low, you have to decide whether to make a standard bet or ck/call OOP the rest of the hand. Either way you're effectively committing over half of your stack. That's why I prefer to wait and will usually raise less PF with this type of hand (80).
 
J

joeeagles

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Are we clearly beat? If so do we have odds to set mine? If not, then can we push?

You probably are beat, but about having odds for set mining I really think you do thanks to the button. You have to put 280 to call, you're getting 3.5 to 1, and I have to think you will get at least 1 of the 2 villains stacks, considering how big the pot is, which puts you even a bit above of where you need to be.

The question is if you're willing to throw in the 280 leaving yourself with 1100 rather than 1380. Some may view it as a big difference, some don't. It's a big % of your stack to play for set value for sure, but the reward would be having a stack at around 3500 vs 1380. I think odds are good to go, it's the 1st hand, so time is yours.

I think chances are good you're behind so I don't like the shove. Stop n go? Again, if you're behind it gets called.

So for me its a fold or call for set value.
 
NineLions

NineLions

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I think I'm with joe.

Though, I lean to a fold. Almost regardless of the flop, except for a set, someone is going to bet and we'll have to fold. If we're willing to let another 280 go right at the start, call and set mine. Otherwise, save them for later when then might be better invested.

I'm curious to know what the button calls with, after two shows of strength.
 
ChuckTs

ChuckTs

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I'm curious to know what the button calls with, after two shows of strength.

Well either he's an 'average' player, in which case he's got to have a very strong hand (JJ at least, and AK prob). I think with AK he's more likely to reraise. AK generally doesn't like to stop and see a flop, they usually like to get the last bet in PF. Based on his PF and postflop play, I'm almost sure this guy had JJ, maybe QQ , unless he was an overly loose player in which case he could have had a lot worse.

I'm getting 3.5:1 on my money on what I think is safe to say is a situation where I'm likely behind a bigger pair. If it's 7:1 to flop a set (I really can't remember the odds, I'm just following pig's numbers), then we need to basically stack one opponent postflop. I think that's doable if we hit our set, no? The only situation I don't see a stack here (when we hit our set) is if we somehow get a scary board for them (say AT9 vs JJ) and they slow down. But vs two opponents, I don't see this happening very often.

Is calling bad? I feel like it was the wrong play even though the numbers say it might not be, but I know that my multitabling definitely had me distracted. I basically thought "better than 3:1, lets see if we can set them", and called:

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t20 (9 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver Cards)

Button (t1500)
SB (t1500)
BB (t1500)
UTG (t1500)
UTG+1 (t1500)
MP1 (t1500)
MP2 (t1500)
Hero (t1500)
CO (t1500)

Preflop: Hero is MP3 with
tc.gif
,
ts.gif
.
UTG calls t20, 2 folds, MP2 calls t20, Hero raises to t120, CO raises to t400, Button calls t400, 2 folds, UTG folds, MP2 folds, Hero calls t280.

Flop: (t1270)
td.gif
,
4d.gif
,
9d.gif
(3 players)
Hero ...
 
B

bw07507

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I think you have to shove that flop. Its already a 1200 dollar pot, so if you just bet, say around 600-700, you are pot committed anyway, may as well just put it all in. If you are positive one of them will bet, you could possibly check/raise, but this is very dangerous, you could be giving a free card if they both check behind. If someone already has the flush, u still have outs to the full house and you will either have a dominant chipstack early or bust out 1st, which is better than busting out 4th.
 
skoldpadda

skoldpadda

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I shove. I'm not giving any free cards and I'm not folding to any bet. And the pot is big enough that I'm happy to take it down now. Even if someone wakes up with 2 diamonds, you have about 30% chance of filling up by the river.
 
ChuckTs

ChuckTs

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ok now what's our range on both villains?

IMO it's like [JJ+, AQs+] for the reraiser, and a little tighter [JJ+, AK+] for the cold-caller.

If we check to the reraiser, he's almost definitely getting his money in with an overpair, or even AK if he's holding a diamond. Even if he's not, something like black aces will still probably shove that flop. Anyways, we check, 3-better pushes, cold-caller gets his money in with what I think is JJ, and I of course call.

My problem with pushing is that we are most probably only getting one stack in the middle. If we push and get instacalled by the 3-better, the cold-caller might toss his overpair thinking it's now no good. If we check, however, he now thinks we could be check-folding and might call AI for a weak overpair.

Yes, checking is risking giving a free card to my opponents, but in such a big pot, they're almost definitely pushing with a diamond draw anyways. Unless someone's got AKd, we're never really worse than about a 2:1 shot (%70 to win), and I think we can trap the third player, however I didn't. 6-tabling can be very distracting.

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t20 (9 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver Cards)

Button (t1500)
SB (t1500)
BB (t1500)
UTG (t1500)
UTG+1 (t1500)
MP1 (t1500)
MP2 (t1500)
Hero (t1500)
CO (t1500)

Preflop: Hero is MP3 with
tc.gif
,
ts.gif
.
UTG calls t20, 2 folds, MP2 calls t20, Hero raises to t120, CO raises to t400, Button calls t400, 2 folds, UTG folds, MP2 folds, Hero calls t280.

Flop: (t1270)
td.gif
,
4d.gif
,
9d.gif
(3 players)
Hero bets t1100 (All-In), CO calls t1100 (All-In), Button folds.

Turn: (t3470)
ah.gif
(2 players, 2 all-in)

River: (t3470)
qh.gif
(2 players, 2 all-in)

Final Pot: t3470

Hero has Tc Ts (three of a kind, tens).
CO has Kd Kh (one pair, kings).
Outcome: Hero wins t3470.

PF call is definitely the most debatable thing though, in my mind.
 
J

joeeagles

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I think you're right, had you checked the flop there is a chance you could have made even more, the chances of trapping the button are much better. I also fully agree with the ranges you gave both villains.

About the PF call, its debatable, no question about it, but only to a certain extent because we have to remember this is an 18 seat turbo. No doubt that its a large portion of your stack to be thrown in just for set value, but this hand was so atypical that you really can't argue it too much. With blinds at 10/20, how often does it happen that you need 280 to call and you're getting 3.5 to 1 on it? Granted those odds still aren't enough, but its pretty easy to predict that, given the size of the pot, if you hit your set you will stack one of the 2 villains, and those I.O. justify playing for set value.

If you fold you have 1380, if you call and miss you have 1100, but if you call and hit we're looking at ~3500. With the crazy nature of these 18 seat turbos (superloose play pre- and postflop, blinds going up every 5 min, people ALWAYS shoving on draws, etc), there really isn't a huge difference between 1100 and 1380. Getting your hands on a 3500 stack does, instead, change a lot, in terms of what you can do on the table now. These 18 seat turbos are a beast of their own, they can't be analyzed with the same criteria of MTT's or other non-turbo (15 min levels) sit n gos.

Does all this make playing this hand for set value legitimate? Its probably still debatable, but for sure much less than how it would be in an MTT or non-turbo tourney.

On a side note, I wanted to point out that there is a book written by a pro that could help those of us (I mess with them too) that play these 9/18 seat turbos. This book was written to aid those players that play live sit n gos in casinos, where the levels are 10 minutes. The 10 min levels live closely resembles the 5 min levels online. This book, for my understanding, is very popular in AC where these sit n gos run all day, and I was told that the strategies in it are very effective, helping you adapt to the fast structure. I'm going to try to search it. I wonder if aliengenius, with his monster knowledge of poker literature, has it or has read about it.
 
ChuckTs

ChuckTs

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^^fwiw joe, this was a standard STT - 9 seats. Nice post though; I do agree that PF is still pretty iffy. Still not sure I made the right call.
 
B

bw07507

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Jan 8, 2007
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2,219
I think you're right, had you checked the flop there is a chance you could have made even more, the chances of trapping the button are much better. I also fully agree with the ranges you gave both villains.

About the PF call, its debatable, no question about it, but only to a certain extent because we have to remember this is an 18 seat turbo. No doubt that its a large portion of your stack to be thrown in just for set value, but this hand was so atypical that you really can't argue it too much. With blinds at 10/20, how often does it happen that you need 280 to call and you're getting 3.5 to 1 on it? Granted those odds still aren't enough, but its pretty easy to predict that, given the size of the pot, if you hit your set you will stack one of the 2 villains, and those I.O. justify playing for set value.

If you fold you have 1380, if you call and miss you have 1100, but if you call and hit we're looking at ~3500. With the crazy nature of these 18 seat turbos (superloose play pre- and postflop, blinds going up every 5 min, people ALWAYS shoving on draws, etc), there really isn't a huge difference between 1100 and 1380. Getting your hands on a 3500 stack does, instead, change a lot, in terms of what you can do on the table now. These 18 seat turbos are a beast of their own, they can't be analyzed with the same criteria of MTT's or other non-turbo (15 min levels) sit n gos.

Does all this make playing this hand for set value legitimate? Its probably still debatable, but for sure much less than how it would be in an MTT or non-turbo tourney.

On a side note, I wanted to point out that there is a book written by a pro that could help those of us (I mess with them too) that play these 9/18 seat turbos. This book was written to aid those players that play live sit n gos in casinos, where the levels are 10 minutes. The 10 min levels live closely resembles the 5 min levels online. This book, for my understanding, is very popular in AC where these sit n gos run all day, and I was told that the strategies in it are very effective, helping you adapt to the fast structure. I'm going to try to search it. I wonder if aliengenius, with his monster knowledge of poker literature, has it or has read about it.

I would definately be interested in reading this if you can find out what it is joe.
 
J

jeffred1111

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Apr 16, 2007
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I probably fold preflop because I don't really like set-mining against opponents who have shown a lot of strength pre unless I have ample chips and know for sure I will stack. What if the flop had comes AJT all diamonds? But I won't argue that the implied odds were probably there: in the first level, having to call 280 indicates that either KK, AA and a lot of the times AK, are out there with other high pairs also being likely.

On the flop, I check all day: there is now way this is getting checked around since everybody will be scared of giving a free card unless someone holds the flush draw (and most probably the nut flush draw) and money is getting in the middle anyway unless flush draw is on the button. Note that we're not slowplaying but c/shoving: not point in betting this unless we know we'll get raised (wich happened) and can get it all on the flop. Open shoving might even fold the two opponents, making our set-mining -EV. This is one of the rare situations where being first to act is more beneficial than being last to act, since we can trap more dead money.
 
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