Top pair weak kicker: Check raised then shoved by a limp caller

[WurlyQ]

$5+.50 18 person SnG with 8 remaining. Blinds are 60/120.

Villain is 40/15/inf (is this considered lag?). I have a relatively TAG image. Villain's line of limp, call the raise, check raise, then shove the turn is just odd from my perspective...

hands that beat me on the flop:
AA, KK: no preflop raise = out of the question
Ax where x>7: Limp call just seems odd with a hand like this but since villain is 40/15, I guess it's in their range...
A2, K2, 22: I guess these are possible though I would consider limp call to be terrible preflop

I preflop raise because I don't like sb limping into the bb after everyone else folds (denies free chips later on). If I call and lose, I'm left with like 600. If I fold, I still have like 2000.

Honestly, I feel like I'm ahead here with a decent chance of even a complete bluff. What do other people think?

Stacks:
* SB with 2975
* BB with 3520
* UTG with 2950
* UTG+1 with 5370
* MP1 with 3705
* MP2 with 2160
* CO with 5095
* BTN with 1225

Blinds:
Site: full tilt poker
* * Dealt to BB:7♣ A♠
Preflop:
* * 6 players fold.
* * SB calls [60]
* * Hero raises to 420
* * SB calls [300]
* * Total folds this street: 6
* * Potsize: 840
Flop:
* * K♠ 2♥ A♣
* * SB checks
* * Hero bets [580]
* * SB raises to 1,160
* * Hero calls [580]
* * Potsize: 3160
Turn:
* * J♥
* * SB bets [1,395, and is all in]
* * Hero ???

Poker Hand Converter By Cardschat.com Poker Forum

 

[c9h13no3]

Villain is 40/15/inf (is this considered lag?).

Fish.

I have a relatively TAG image.

No one notices.

I'm not a tourney player, but its total spew to call the flop raise and not call his 1/3 pot bet on the turn. You're getting 3.25:1, so your hand has to be good here 23% of the time.

However, that's as you played it. I, personally, think you played it horribly (no offense).

Your M = 20, so you're 30 big blinds deep. Super awkward stack size. I'd advocate a plan for the hand where we keep the pot small, so I'd raise preflop to 325 or so. Its large enough to punish his limp, and give you initiative, but it keeps the pot smaller.

Secondly, check this flop back almost every time. Pretty classic WA/WB spot, you want to keep the pot smallish, and at the same time you induce bluffs from worse hands & maybe convince him his king is good.

People do some goofy stuff blind vs. blind, and I'm not sure I can fold top pair 30 big blinds deep. But in my opinion, we shouldn't be playing a giant pot on the flop with this hand.


EDIT - Oh, and alternatively, we could raise his limp up to about 700. This would make a 1400 pot on the flop, and he'd have 2275 behind. So we could then just shove the flop. But either way, you want to make the stack to pot ratio either very small so you can confidently stack off with TPNK, or as large as possible, so you can play some postflop poker. I think either would work out, but I'd lean towards a line that allows villain to bluff, since villain is so aggressive.

 

[WurlyQ]

I'm not a tourney player, but its total spew to call the flop raise and not call his 1/3 pot bet on the turn. You're getting 3.25:1, so your hand has to be good here 23% of the time.

Not quite that simple. I can play with a 2000 stack, I need to get lucky with a 600 stack. If I had 2000 even if I lose, I snap call this. If this was a cash game and my remaining chips if I lose didn't matter, I snap call this.

I thought I was good after the flop and didn't expect a shove. That being said, I made a major error by not noticing my stack size compared to villain's stack size and maybe I should have folded this on the check raise.

However, that's as you played it. I, personally, think you played it horribly (no offense).

Your M = 20, so you're 30 big blinds deep. Super awkward stack size. I'd advocate a plan for the hand where we keep the pot small, so I'd raise preflop to 325 or so. Its large enough to punish his limp, and give you initiative, but it keeps the pot smaller.

420 is the amount that I thought they would fold to. They routinely called 2.5 the bb (granted not sb vs bb). Thus, I knew they had a non garbage hand. 325 gives me no information.

Secondly, check this flop back almost every time. Pretty classic WA/WB spot, you want to keep the pot smallish, and at the same time you induce bluffs from worse hands & maybe convince him his king is good.

People do some goofy stuff blind vs. blind, and I'm not sure I can fold top pair 30 big blinds deep. But in my opinion, we shouldn't be playing a giant pot on the flop with this hand.

This is a very good point. *jot jot jot* Oh, and what is WA/WB?

EDIT - Oh, and alternatively, we could raise his limp up to about 700. This would make a 1400 pot on the flop, and he'd have 2275 behind. So we could then just shove the flop. But either way, you want to make the stack to pot ratio either very small so you can confidently stack off with TPNK, or as large as possible, so you can play some postflop poker. I think either would work out, but I'd lean towards a line that allows villain to bluff, since villain is so aggressive.

Mmm... I miss the flop about 80% of the time so I don't like this (A or 7 high flop). I'm not sure about $5+.50 but at $2+.25, people limp shove small - medium pockets. Furthermore, would villain fold to 700 if they are calling 425 and routinely calling 2.5x bb with garbage?


Any opinions on whether this line is a bluff? ... or is it just impossible to tell.

 

[cardsDontMatter]

WA/WB = Way Ahead/Way Behind.

It's crazy, but I am noticing this line more and more lately.. the check-raise the flop all in or check raise the turn all in after 3betting or 4betting.

I've also tried lines to disguise my strength.

My experiences of late, is that I am way f---ing behind, everytime. While I am not "good enough" to fold AA-KK when these moves take place, if I like my tournament position and there is plenty of time left, I may just donk-fold and Note the player and the move.. fool me once.. fool me twice. I am not advocating this as a sound strategy.

If you really don't know what to do, muck your cards and try to learn something from it.

A7o in the BB... C9 is dead on.

 

[c9h13no3]

That being said, I made a major error by not noticing my stack size compared to villain's stack size and maybe I should have folded this on the check raise.

Yep.

420 is the amount that I thought they would fold to. They routinely called 2.5 the bb (granted not sb vs bb). Thus, I knew they had a non garbage hand. 325 gives me no information.

You're not buying information necessarily, you're putting money in with a hand that beats his range. You sacrifice some fold equity to keep the pot small. If you wanted fold equity, and a line that was easier to play, then pump it up huge to 700ish. "Betting for information" is a phrase I hear a lot playing poker, and its pretty retarded for the most part.

This is a very good point. *jot jot jot* Oh, and what is WA/WB?

This should really be required reading: https://www.cardschat.com/f49/wa-wb-concept-76525/

Mmm... I miss the flop about 80% of the time so I don't like this (A or 7 high flop).

With a SPR as small as it would be if you raise to 700, you have to stack off lighter than just top pair. So I might call a shove from this player on a 22J flop with ace high. Also, we're shoving almost any flop when checked to.

A7 isn't a super easy hand to play. If you just checked in the big blind & check/folded unless you hit big, it wouldn't be a big leak. However, I'm trying to give you the two best ways I think there are to play it. But either way you chose to play it, a hand like this is going to put you to tough decisions. It does have an ace, so its hard to fold, but it doesn't make strong hands very easily. Thus, it leaves you in nasty spots like this one.

 

[WurlyQ]

You're not buying information necessarily, you're putting money in with a hand that beats his range. You sacrifice some fold equity to keep the pot small. If you wanted fold equity, and a line that was easier to play, then pump it up huge to 700ish. "Betting for information" is a phrase I hear a lot playing poker, and its pretty retarded for the most part.

Every piece of information is important for me because in many SnG's or tournaments, there is a hand where I have to make a crucial read risking a large number of chips. I'd throw in extra 100 chips if that narrows someone's range by 50% any day.

This should really be required reading: https://www.cardschat.com/f49/wa-wb-concept-76525/

Interesting read. However, I'm first to act. I am not calling 3 streets so when I said I should check, it was with the intent to check raise. If I had gotten shoved over the top in this situation, I would be able to rest easier knowing that I was probably beat.

With a SPR as small as it would be if you raise to 700, you have to stack off lighter than just top pair. So I might call a shove from this player on a 22J flop with ace high. Also, we're shoving almost any flop when checked to.

In a cash game, yes. In a SnG and probably a tournament depending on stack sizes, no.

A7 isn't a super easy hand to play. If you just checked in the big blind & check/folded unless you hit big, it wouldn't be a big leak. However, I'm trying to give you the two best ways I think there are to play it. But either way you chose to play it, a hand like this is going to put you to tough decisions. It does have an ace, so its hard to fold, but it doesn't make strong hands very easily. Thus, it leaves you in nasty spots like this one.

I do this with the intent of getting people to fold to my BB later on so it's not like I'm repeatedly putting myself in this situation. The more I think about this hand, the more I think there was a good chance this was a kicker battle where I may not have been behind.

 

[c9h13no3]

Every piece of information is important for me because in many SnG's or tournaments, there is a hand where I have to make a crucial read risking a large number of chips. I'd throw in extra 100 chips if that narrows someone's range by 50% any day.

100 extra chips doesn't narrow his range at all...

However, I'm first to act.

No you're not.

I do this with the intent of getting people to fold to my BB later on

That's a pretty terrible reason. You want players to limp your BB from the SB when its folded around. They have to play a pot out of position with a weak range of hands.

Also, you beat A3, A4, A5, and A6. That's a very narrow range of hands to be in a kicker battle with, and villain's range is CERTAINLY WIDER than that.

 

[WurlyQ]

100 extra chips doesn't narrow his range at all...

If it's the difference between fold and call, yes it does. I look for patterns in bet sizes and it's worked well for me so far.

No you're not.

Whoops thinking of a different hand. I'm going to have to think this one through a little more now.

That's a pretty terrible reason. You want players to limp your BB from the SB when its folded around. They have to play a pot out of position with a weak range of hands.

You really want them limping on you consistently? I generally prefer people folding to me. I generally prefer a sure 1.5BB over an unsure 2BB. This is something I just instinctively thought was true but if there are reasons on the contrary, let me know

Also, you beat A3, A4, A5, and A6. That's a very narrow range of hands to be in a kicker battle with, and villain's range is CERTAINLY WIDER than that.

Well I'm saying that I could be behind but there's a decent chance I chop this pot when they have Ax also. I'm just saying if I had to put them on a hand, it would probably be Ax and I wouldn't be sure if I was ahead or not. However, if I had to go with the range idea, I still think I'm ahead here.

 

[c9h13no3]

If it's the difference between fold and call, yes it does.

But it doesn't... who limps and folds for 300 more but calls for 200 more? And if a player ever does, it isn't this 45/15 fish. The extra 100 chips might fold out the weakest of his hands, but those are actually the hands we want to call the most. Either raise a very large raise preflop to fold a huge portion of his range, or just raise smallish to give yourself initiative & push your preflop equity edge.

You really want them limping on you when you have garbage? I generally prefer people folding to me.

This might be coming from my cash experience, but I am usually delighted when a player limps in this situation, because its almost free money. They either fold to the preflop raise, fold to a c-bet, or get all their money in bad with whatever crappy hand they limped with. Once in a while you'll get coolered, but most of the time the advantage you have playing in position with initiative will make up for any lack of equity your hand has.

Well I'm saying that I could be behind but there's a decent chance I chop this pot when they have Ax also. I'm just saying if I had to put them on a hand, it would probably be Ax and I wouldn't be sure if I was ahead or not.

Stop putting your opponents on hands, and put them on a range. You've figured out that at least he has a range of aces (Ax), but take it one step further, and put him on a range of hands (XX).

I'd say villain's value range is 22, AT-A2 (with A3-A6 being less likely to be played this way). Against this value range, we have 44% equity. If he has bluffs in his range, then its a pretty obvious call on the turn. However, I think we could've taken a line that allows him to bluff more, and thus we become an even bigger favorite.

 

[WurlyQ]

But it doesn't... who limps and folds for 300 more but calls for 200 more? And if a player ever does, it isn't this 45/15 fish. The extra 100 chips might fold out the weakest of his hands, but those are actually the hands we want to call the most. Either raise a very large raise preflop to fold a huge portion of his range, or just raise smallish to give yourself initiative & push your preflop equity edge.

You've never seen people that routinely call 2 or 2.5x bb raises but fold to 3.5-4bb raises? I have. In retrospect I could have raised a little more but I don't think that would make much of a difference. Obviously if we have no read on villain, what you say is very true as I just witnessed someone limp 40 call 240 with A2 and I busted with QQ on a 227 board .

This might be coming from my cash experience, but I am usually delighted when a player limps in this situation, because its almost free money. They either fold to the preflop raise, fold to a c-bet, or get all their money in bad with whatever crappy hand they limped with. Once in a while you'll get coolered, but most of the time the advantage you have playing in position with initiative will make up for any lack of equity your hand has.

Going to have to think about this one. I might like people folding to my BB because I play a lot of 18 person SnG where the blinds get relatively high in the later hands but if I want people limping into my bb from the sb, I may take a different approach in the future.

Stop putting your opponents on hands, and put them on a range. You've figured out that at least he has a range of aces (Ax), but take it one step further, and put him on a range of hands (XX).

I'd say villain's value range is 22, AT-A2 (with A3-A6 being less likely to be played this way). Against this value range, we have 44% equity. If he has bluffs in his range, then its a pretty obvious call on the turn. However, I think we could've taken a line that allows him to bluff more, and thus we become an even bigger favorite.

For the purposes of making a play, I always put my opponents on a weighted range. Here, I'm just trying to figure out if I was good or not and if other people had experience on what opponents flipped up on them when the hand took a similar line. Also, being right 50% of the time is not enough for me to call here. As I said before, I can play with 2000 chips, I need lots of luck with 600 chips.

Also, I don't like the simple range approach. Based on observation, I will weight my range differently for different types of hands.

 

[c9h13no3]

Also, being right 50% of the time is not enough for me to call here...

If he has bluffs in his range, and you have, say, 55% equity, and you're getting 29% pot odds to call, that's a big edge. Its not some small insignificant edge that you pass up in a tournament.

 

[WurlyQ]

If he has bluffs in his range, and you have, say, 55% equity, and you're getting 29% pot odds to call, that's a big edge. Its not some small insignificant edge that you pass up in a tournament.

I may be overconfident here but I don't like flipping on whether or not I can cash in an 18 person SnG which is all about cashing IMO. I think it was early enough that I would be confident in cashing with 2000. Your point is well taken in that I should probably weigh the risk reward a little more carefully though.

On the contrary, now that I think about it, in a tournament I might make the call because I think you need to take chances to have a chance at the final table which is what people should be interested in when playing tournaments (at least from my perspective).