Sit and Go: I guess you do not win everyhand as favourite.

[calibanboy]

I had a wry smile on my face. Thought I played it well in EP. Isolated 1 person and then lose my 72% shot. Not the biggest outdraw in the world And everyone gets negative Varience.

How can you avoid this with KK? I know its always vulnerable to the Ace. Is this the best long term way to lay KK - when you have seen lots of raises early in a tourney? ( see comments after hand history )

NL Texas Hold'em $11 USD Buy-in Trny: 33073960 Level: 2 Blinds(30/60) - Tuesday, April 24, 11:44:00 ET 2007
Table Table 125982 (real money)
Seat 7 is the button
Total number of players : 9
Seat 2: DitmarZ ( 1,530 )
Seat 4: Missa76 ( 2,120 )
Seat 5: Taxidriver4711 ( 2,190 )
Seat 6: Scroll100 ( 2,160 )
Seat 7: kaefer123 ( 2,320 )
Seat 9: MALYSH_100 ( 1,220 )
Seat 1: Calibanboy ( 2,400 )
Seat 8: Wurstwasser9 ( 2,600 )
Seat 10: Bluemoon124 ( 3,460 )
Trny: 33073960 Level: 2
Blinds(30/60)
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to Calibanboy [ Kh Kc ]
Bluemoon124 folds
Calibanboy calls [60]
DitmarZ raises [350]
Missa76 folds
Taxidriver4711 calls [350]
Scroll100 folds
kaefer123 folds
Wurstwasser9 calls [320]
MALYSH_100 folds
Calibanboy is all-In [2,340]
DitmarZ has been reconnected and has 20 seconds to act.
DitmarZ is all-In [1,180]
Taxidriver4711 folds
Wurstwasser9 folds
** Dealing Flop ** [ 8c, 3s, 4h ]
** Dealing Turn ** [ Ah ]
** Dealing River ** [ Jd ]
DitmarZ shows [ Qc, Ad ]a pair of Aces.
Calibanboy shows [ Kh, Kc ]a pair of Kings.
Calibanboy wins 870 chips from side pot #1 with a pair of Kings.
DitmarZ wins 3,820 chips from the main pot with a pair of Aces.


( I expect people will tell me that a raise and then push on the flop will ensure I do not get beat in this particular hand - but that way I have 3 callers - and can get beat differently)

The good news is I came back and ended up second ( with a little help of positive Varience when my all in 77 ( 20% ) beat the same guys QQ ). At least I bet first and had fold equity (but not much).

Swings and roundabouts......

 

[tosborn]

You said it yourself. I can't get over the fact that people are limping with big pocket pairs (absolutely no offense meant). For every limper the range to call for the next guy increases. If I'm on the button and have four limpers in front of me, I'll play any two cards if I'm deepstacked.

The result of the preflop was alright. I will never tell anyone that getting all your money in the middle with KK preflop is a bad play. However, I like to control the pot size a little better than that. Bets and reraises are all 3 times the previous bet or at least half the pot. I keep pounding until I'm likely beat. And this isn't just with premium hands. Any hand that I play is bet the same way.

Aggression, aggression, aggression and then if the board gets unfavorable I'll lay it down. Most decisions are either raise/fold. Obviously chipstack will dictate changing to push/fold.

I hardly check either, the main reason is that I try not to play marginal hands in EP. That means that if my pocket QQ were good preflop and the flop comes JT8 rainbow, I'm probably still ahead. Thus this becomes either a raise or check/fold and I'm going to gamble.

To answer your question, you really didn't do anything wrong and the way you played it would definately be +EV.

 

[calibanboy]

Hi Tosborn,

I limped with the knowledge that early in the tourny that getting value for KK is hard. A big raise ( 300+ ) to protect will often get no callers. ( yet lots of limps often provide a squeeze play in LP ) and anything below 300 raise that is likely to get 3-4 callers leaving me vulnerable.

I knew that If raised I would go all-in.

I knew if the flop played without a raise I would fold unless I had an overpair or trips. I would easyily fold the overpair if i had too much resistence

I see this as the best way of getting value early on in a Sit and go - do you disagree?

 

[tosborn]

Personally I disagree. Like I said though each person has their own style, and in my opinion staying consistent to your style is more important than what you actually hold in your hand.

Realistically though KK do not play 4-way+ all that well. I want to isolate and destroy. And really scooping the blinds is better than getting into 4-way flop that is either coordinated or contains an Ace and having to lay the hand down right?

Almost every table has a couple of donks that will call you down, don't allow the solid players to loosen up and suck out on you.

 

[joeeagles]

I think you played this OK, you just got unlucky there. Your limp from 2nd position got the effect that you wanted, someone raised after you. 2nd position is the farthest I'll go to limp with that hand, after that I just raise and don't even consider limping.

Anyway pot was raised to 350 after your limp and called by 2 players, leaving you no choice but to go all-in since a smaller reraise would not be good here because pot was already 1170 so odds would be favorable to call for the other 3 guys. Just think this: if you reraise to 1k the first raiser would be getting 3.5 to 1 odds so he will call and the others will follow because they would be getting even better odds and you and 1st raiser would be pot committed anyway at that point.

All this pretty much dismisses the idea that a raise and push on the flop will ensure that you don't get beat. Lets face it: the only way to not get beat here is to fold PF or just smooth call the raise and then push, which is wrong because you would be allowing this pot to be 4-ways before the flop. Another would be that maybe, had you been the 1st raiser, pot would still be 4-way and then you could have shoved on the flop taking it down right there since it was big enough and worth the move.

But again, as played (with the initial limp), I don't see how you could have prevented this outcome.

 

[calibanboy]

Hi, well we agree on one thing, and that is that we want to isolate and destroy.

I am personally happy to let my KK go if a get a limped flop than just scoop the blinds at this satge of the Sit and Go.

I want a few limper and one person to raise so that I can isolate and destroy from a fairly deceptive angle. I agree that this is not that deceptive to an experienced player - ( eg EP limp raise stinks of KK/AA) - but this a $10 sit and go on Party where there are a lot of not very experienced players.

The tricky bit ( and one that i think I can handle ) is laying down the Kings in a multiway limped pot if you come up aganist resistence.

 

[calibanboy]

.

All this pretty much dismisses the idea that a raise and push on the flop will ensure that you don't get beat. Lets face it: the only way to not get beat here is to fold PF or just smooth call the raise and then push, which is wrong because you would be allowing this pot to be 4-ways before the flop. Another would be that maybe, had you been the 1st raiser, pot would still be 4-way and then you could have shoved on the flop taking it down right there since it was big enough and worth the move.

But again, as played (with the initial limp), I don't see how you could have prevented this outcome.

Thanks for the reply Joe. I agree with all you say here. The item is bold is what I meant when I said "a raise and then push" ( I did not make that very clear )......

 

[calibanboy]

Personally I disagree. Like I said though each person has their own style, and in my opinion staying consistent to your style is more important than what you actually hold in your hand.

Hi Tosborn, I also find this interesting.

Whilst I have lots of "rules of engagement" as you suggest I do try to mix it up. That way people do not have notes on me that say - "when this guy raises he definately has a top 5 PP , A/K or A/Qs"

That said I agree that you have to have measures to ensure that you do not suck out and get bad beats. I guess like everything in poker its horses for courses.....??

 

[joeeagles]

Yes, being able to to lay down KK in a limped multiway pot is essential if you're going to play it this way. I do that every now and then (limp UTG or in 2nd position at most) and it can be succesful as long as your disciplined. Mostly the reason why I do this in the later stages of tourneys is to avoid picking up only the blinds since UTG raises tend to get alot of respect, and it almost always happens that some unexperienced player will raise attempting a steal which your limp has made juicier.

But as we said, it does require discipline.

 

[rob5775]

If your read on the players in late position is that they're very loose/aggresive, and very likely to raise a limpede, then limping with AA or KK can be profitable. You play it the same way, putting in a very big raise or push if it gets back around to you (LP raiser).

But your taking the chance of it just getting checked to the flop, and now your in there with 4 or 5 players. To make this play you have to have a very clear idea of where you want to go with it and when to release the pocket pair when it looks like your beat.

I would only make this play if I had a VERY good read on the players and a raise would VERY likely. Otherwise, you want to start building a pot with a raise preflop, so your value hand gets a value pot.

Robbie

 

[ChuckTs]

Limping with the intention of raising is fine if you know your table is aggressive enough that you'll get a raise more often than not behind you. As mentioned, you'd have to know when to lay it down postflop if you get too much action on a scary board.

I don't see why we're getting into so much depth here; we got KK AIPF against a dominated hand with a bunch of dead money in there, and got bad beat. You played it fine. Shit happens

 

[tosborn]

Personally I disagree. Like I said though each person has their own style, and in my opinion staying consistent to your style is more important than what you actually hold in your hand.

Hi Tosborn, I also find this interesting.

Whilst I have lots of "rules of engagement" as you suggest I do try to mix it up. That way people do not have notes on me that say - "when this guy raises he definately has a top 5 PP , A/K or A/Qs"

That said I agree that you have to have measures to ensure that you do not suck out and get bad beats. I guess like everything in poker its horses for courses.....??

I guess I really didn't make this clear. I'm not saying that you should stick to one style of play only. What I meant is that early you want an image. Even if it is as simple as "He plays premium hands very aggressively".

You were only at Level II, and although I'm sure you felt like you would get raised, I don't think you had enough reads yet to ensure that.

Absolutely if you think that you will get raised this is a safe play. Absolutely we want to mix our play up. Absolutely getting as much money in the pot preflop is to our advantage.

I think that setting up an image early and playing off of that image later is more important than risking our tournament life at this stage by letting a number of villains draw us out.

If preflop would have been called down instead of raised and the big blind just happened to hold 84o you would have been busted. I mean there is no way we are laying down KK to that board. At this stage of the tournament with the blinds so low and chipstack sizes so even, it is vital that we find out where we are in the hand.