Razz: Made 8 low vs Villian potential 7 low, 6th street decision

[Jack Daniels]

Assume no good reads on villian right now but he seems to be pretty loose and not much clue about Razz strategy imo. And no Poker Tracker stats, sorry. Also, I rarely play turbo tourney razz but there were no other tournies to be had and I'm just still moving into ring games, so does the turbo aspect affect this any?

pokerstars Limit Razz Tourney ($3.00+$0.40), (t100/t200) (7 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from triple-t
(Format: FlopTurnRiver.com)
saw 4th Street|saw showdown
Hero (t1176)
PLR2 (t2369)
PLR3 (t1881)
PLR4 (t2075)
PLR5 (t1962)
PLR6 (t1163)
PLR7 (t1374)
Hero is PLR1.
3rd Street: (Pot=1.4SB)
Hero: 8

7

A

PLR2: XX XX T

PLR3: XX XX 6

PLR4: XX XX J

PLR5: XX XX T

PLR6: XX XX T

PLR7: XX XX Q

PLR7 brings in, Hero raises, 1 folds, PLR3 3-bets, 4 folds, Hero calls.
4th Street: (Pot=5.7SB) (2 players)
Hero: 8

7

A

5

PLR3: XX XX 6

7

Hero bets, PLR3 calls.
5th Street: (Pot=3.85BB) (2 players)
Hero: 8

7

A

5

2

PLR3: XX XX 6

7

A

Hero bets, PLR3 calls.
6th Street: (Pot=5.85BB) (2 players)
Hero: 8

7

A

5

2

Q

PLR3: XX XX 6

7

A

3

PLR3 bets, Hero ???


Where am I at here? Do I call this or do I raise? He's been calling all along and now leads out? I'm thinking this means he's made his 7 low at this point. But I have the better draw even though I bricked here. Call with pot odds and hope for the best on the river?

One other question, should I cap 3rd street with my 87A vs a 6 door card? Or is flat calling better there?

 

[skoldpadda]

With only 6 big bets left, I'd probably pass on such a marginal hand -- playing it is essentially as a steal. Definitely do not cap 3rd as there is no point since you likely have the worst hand and are already heads up. Playing very marginal hands like A78 put you in sticky situations like this.

 

[OzExorcist]

I wouldn't cap third either, 87 is just too marginal. Sure, it looks like we're stealing because we've got the only ace showing so villain could be three-betting us light, but our awful position has gotta counterbalance that impression somehow.

Anywho, by 6th villain would either have to have been raising you with something pretty lousy in the hole on 3rd and/or have paired for you to still be ahead.

Trouble is, you've got seven outs to improve to a 75, which might be good, and you're getting almost exactly the right pot odds to call this. Especially if the villain is the loose/awful type who'll bet any strong board hard regardless of what you're showing - the fact that he just flat called fourth and fifth is a worry for me, it's possible he doesn't credit you for a made hand yet and thinks he can push you off after catching the queen, but I'd figure he's likely made himself.

Call it a leak in my game but I probably call this hoping to improve on seventh if he's generally bad / loose, knowing that we'll have position again on the river. Some of those players will sheepishly check it to you on the river and show you their three pair or queen-high. I definitely don't raise it on 6th.

 

[Jack Daniels]

With only 6 big bets left, I'd probably pass on such a marginal hand -- playing it is essentially as a steal.

Ok, so let's back up to 3rd street for a minute. Even with only 6 BB left, in a turbo at this point with three to an 8 low, why would 8

7

A

be considered a "marginal" hand on a board of A

T

6

J

T

T

Q

?

Definitely do not cap 3rd as there is no point since you likely have the worst hand and are already heads up.

Agreed. I think I had to flat call there though as my raise does look like a steal and he could just be pushing back. Of course even a donkey can have a good hand, but I keep thinking about this guy showing down hands where he played hidden face cards to hands he shouldn't have been in.

4th Street: (Pot=5.7SB) (2 players)
Hero: 8

7

A

5

PLR3: XX XX 6

7

Hero bets, PLR3 calls.
Was this a good bet here or are you now saying either check/fold or check/call?

5th Street: (Pot=3.85BB) (2 players)
Hero: 8

7

A

5

2

PLR3: XX XX 6

7

A

Hero bets, PLR3 calls.
Same question here.

Trouble is, you've got seven outs to improve to a 75, which might be good, and you're getting almost exactly the right pot odds to call this.

Crap. You just made me realize something. I said I had the best draw here but I don't. I have a made 8 drawing to at best a 7-5. He has a made 7-6 here and may still be able to draw lower to a 6 low.
6th Street: (Pot=5.85BB) (2 players)
Hero: 8

7

A

5

2

Q

PLR3: XX XX 6

7

A

3

PLR3 bets, Hero ???

Call it a leak in my game but I probably call this hoping to improve on seventh if he's generally bad / loose, knowing that we'll have position again on the river. Some of those players will sheepishly check it to you on the river and show you their three pair or queen-high. I definitely don't raise it on 6th.

So we are all in agreement that raising 6th street here would be a mistake? Good. So I...

6th Street: (Pot=5.85BB) (2 players)
Hero: 8

7

A

5

2

Q

PLR3: XX XX 6

7

A

3

PLR3 bets, Hero raises (!!!), PLR3 3-bets, Hero ???

Ok, so obv I shouldn't have done that. But I'm committed to calling now, right? That's obvious based on having like no chips left to do anything, right?

 

[OzExorcist]

Ouch.

I can't speak for Skold, but I'd definitely bet fourth and fifth. Especially against the kind of player who'll keep calling then show down face cards in the hole, which it sounds like we're up against here.

As for sixth after the three-bet... yeah, I guess we call if we've come this far. Our odds of improving are unchanged, but the pot odds are better. Of course we're pretty much committed to calling seventh as well now, seeing as there's an outside chance the villain could be making a stupid move with something marginal, and there's so little left in our stack.

 

[robwhufc]

I'd have played it exactly the same as JD. Yes it's unfortunate you've got 78 in the hole, but on a board like that you've only got one opponent who is going to call the first bet, and he could have KK behind.

Another bet with A5 showing against 67 is fair enough - if you check you're leaving it open for him to bet and potentially take it down.

Then A52 is up against 67A - you haven't paired, he may have. If he's got a made 7 then you've got plenty of outs to beat him. I think a bet is in order here, to take it to the end.

6th street is bad, but you're pretty much stuck into the hand now - I wish it hadn't been converted so we can see the stack sizes easier - your opponent has now drawn 4 cards out of 4 lower than a 7, there's not a hell of a lot you can do about that.

Not sure what your remaining stack is, but I think you've got to call the final 2 bets and just hope he's paired up a few times.

 

[robwhufc]

With only 6 big bets left, I'd probably pass on such a marginal hand -- playing it is essentially as a steal.

Is that not Razz? Especially late on in tournament, whoever has the lowest card showing raises and wins.

 

[mrjohnson911]

just call 6th street and check/call 7th hoping for the best...

 

[Jack Daniels]

I think looking back that in the same situation I'm 99.9% sure I'd play it the same way up to 6th street. The situation was getting a bit dire really; less than 6BB to start the hand. At that point I have to figure that a three card 8 with an A door card vs a 6 door card could likely be the best hand. That's why I started my post with a question on 6th street as I was content with my play to that point.

6th street is bad, but you're pretty much stuck into the hand now - I wish it hadn't been converted so we can see the stack sizes easier - your opponent has now drawn 4 cards out of 4 lower than a 7, there's not a hell of a lot you can do about that.

And to answer Rob's point, I've put about half of my stack into the pot at this point. I was thinking the the same thing; that I'm sort of stuck in this now. I think that's what led to me 6th street raise. I'd mentally commited myself to hand at that point.

Not sure what your remaining stack is, but I think you've got to call the final 2 bets and just hope he's paired up a few times.

I concur. At this point in the hand and tourney, I can't dump

Results for morbidly curious:
6th Street: (Pot=5.85BB) (2 players)
Hero: 8

7

A

5

2

Q

PLR3: XX XX 6

7

A

3

PLR3 bets, Hero raises (!!!), PLR3 3-bets, Hero caps All-In, PLR3 calls.

River: (Pot=12.41BB) (2 players, 1 all-in)
Hero: 8

7

A

5

2

Q

4

PLR3: XX XX 6

7

A

3

5

Hero has 8h 7s As 5d 2c Qd 4s, (7,5,4,2,A)
PLR3 has Ad 5s 6s 7h Ah 3s 5h, (7,6,5,3,A)
Hero wins t2482 from Main Pot.

 

[skoldpadda]

I'm nitty and would wait for a better hand on 3rd though this is reasonable up to 6th. You have to ck/call 6th though. I think when you improve on 7th, then you can value raise reasonably since he most likely has a 76 at this point vs your 75. He will be pot committed to call and you will be so short stack by then that if you lost, it really wouldn't matter.

 

[Jack Daniels]

You have to ck/call 6th though. I think when you improve on 7th, then you can value raise reasonably since he most likely has a 76 at this point vs your 75. He will be pot committed to call and you will be so short stack by then that if you lost, it really wouldn't matter.

Ok, but say I flat call 6th here. I started with 1176 and after calling on 6th I've now put in just over 700 chips or 60% of my stack. Now what happens on the river if I brick and he leads out? Do you fold and take the 476 chips and hope to make a run soon? Or do you make a crying call because there is a lot of money in the pot? I'm thinking I'd have to fold it and take the big loss of stack. While I would be getting about 8.5 to 1 to call, if the river bricked I'd have to imagine we win this hand as played less than 10% of the time.

 

[OzExorcist]

My initial plan for the hand (before we saw the cap on sixth) was to flat call sixth and bet seventh if we improved.

Thing is though, if we don't cap sixth then we don't know that the villain is willing to cap sixth. That's important information come the river - without knowing that, it's a lot more likely that his thought process goes "This guy completed against a bunch of high up cards with an ace on third, and now he's bricked sixth. It's entirely possible he's still drawing, I'll try to push him out with my scary board".

Against a tight player I don't think there's any way we can call a river bet. Against a loose player who's shown down garbage more than a few times, however... again, call it a leak, but you see people making moves based on the above thought process all the time, and I might pay them off with an eight knowing that often they'll be showing down two pair and a queen or some other garbage like that.

Capping sixth changes everything - once you've done that, the villain pretty much has to have a hand. But without capping sixth, against that kind of villain I probably make the river call. Like I said, call it a leak, but villain shoud be showing down garbage the right number of times to justify it.