Open shoving from EP

[baudib1]

My play in the late stages of MTTs is not really that subtle or nuanced.

Full Tilt, 500/1,000 blinds, 125 ante NL Hold'em Tourney, 8 Players
Hand History Converter by Stoxpoker

SB: 36,839 (36.8 bb)
BB: 16,437 (16.4 bb)
UTG+2: 27,285 (27.3 bb)
Hero (MP1): 22,163 (22.2 bb)
MP2: 15,816 (15.8 bb)
MP3: 26,183 (26.2 bb)
CO: 16,838 (16.8 bb)
BTN: 40,369 (40.4 bb)

Pre-Flop: Hero is MP1 with Q

A

UTG+2 folds, Hero raises to 22,038 and is all-in, 5 folds, BB calls 15,312 and is all-in


Full Tilt, 500/1,000 blinds, 125 ante NL Hold'em Tourney, 8 Players
Hand History Converter by Stoxpoker

BTN: 36,214 (36.2 bb)
BB: 27,160 (27.2 bb)
Hero (UTG+1): 39,850 (39.9 bb)
UTG+2: 15,691 (15.7 bb)
MP1: 26,058 (26.1 bb)
MP2: 27,550 (27.6 bb)
MP3: 16,713 (16.7 bb)
CO: 40,244 (40.2 bb)

Pre-Flop: Hero is UTG+1 with T

T

Hero raises to 39,725 and is all-in, 6 folds, BB calls 26,035 and is all-in

Results: 55,070 pot (55,070 rake)

 

[SavagePenguin]

My play in the late stages of MTTs is not really that subtle or nuanced.


Full Tilt, 500/1,000 blinds, 125 ante NL Hold'em Tourney, 8 Players
Hand History Converter by Stoxpoker

BTN: 36,214 (36.2 bb)
BB: 27,160 (27.2 bb)
Hero (UTG+1): 39,850 (39.9 bb)
UTG+2: 15,691 (15.7 bb)
MP1: 26,058 (26.1 bb)
MP2: 27,550 (27.6 bb)
MP3: 16,713 (16.7 bb)
CO: 40,244 (40.2 bb)

Pre-Flop: Hero is UTG+1 with T

T

Hero raises to 39,725 and is all-in, 6 folds, BB calls 26,035 and is all-in

Results: 55,070 pot (55,070 rake)

I know Full Tilt's rake is too high, but 100% is sick!

Your M is over 15. That is way too early to shove. If you had half as many chips or if the blinds and antes were twice as big you're still a rotation or two (or three!) from making this move.

 

[baudib1]

I agree; as it turns out, the hand would have played the same because of what BB had. Result was good tho.

 

[bonflizubi]

I agree; as it turns out, the hand would have played the same because of what BB had. Result was good tho.

Dont judge it on the result.

 

[bonflizubi]

I don't like either of these plays.

My play in the late stages of MTTs is not really that subtle or nuanced.

Full Tilt, 500/1,000 blinds, 125 ante NL Hold'em Tourney, 8 Players
Hand History Converter by Stoxpoker

SB: 36,839 (36.8 bb)
BB: 16,437 (16.4 bb)
UTG+2: 27,285 (27.3 bb)
Hero (MP1): 22,163 (22.2 bb)
MP2: 15,816 (15.8 bb)
MP3: 26,183 (26.2 bb)
CO: 16,838 (16.8 bb)
BTN: 40,369 (40.4 bb)

Pre-Flop: Hero is MP1 with Q

A

UTG+2 folds, Hero raises to 22,038 and is all-in, 5 folds, BB calls 15,312 and is all-in

I've started occasionally shoving 15-20BB with ppairs from mid to late position once antes are involved, But from MP with 22BB and AQ? Gotta call this horrible.

Raise 3x. if you get re-raised you can choose to call teh shove or fold, depending on who it is. But a huge shove is only getting called by a very good hand here. And you are behind most hands that do call you.

My style here would be to 2.5x raise, (my std with antes involved) and call shoves from the shorties or the blinds. (shortie here being 20 or under BB) .
If re-popped by anyone here I am shoving over them.

Full Tilt, 500/1,000 blinds, 125 ante NL Hold'em Tourney, 8 Players
Hand History Converter by Stoxpoker

BTN: 36,214 (36.2 bb)
BB: 27,160 (27.2 bb)
Hero (UTG+1): 39,850 (39.9 bb)
UTG+2: 15,691 (15.7 bb)
MP1: 26,058 (26.1 bb)
MP2: 27,550 (27.6 bb)
MP3: 16,713 (16.7 bb)
CO: 40,244 (40.2 bb)

Pre-Flop: Hero is UTG+1 with T

T

Hero raises to 39,725 and is all-in, 6 folds, BB calls 26,035 and is all-in

Results: 55,070 pot (55,070 rake)

Really hate this play. 40bb shove? recipe for disaster normally if you get called. Why not make a normal raise? Are you afraid to play TT out of position after the flop? You are willing to gamble that noone wakes up with AK, JJ+ here and lose half or your entire stack? TT is NOT the nuts (I learned the hard way believe me.) If you are between 15 and 20BB I consider shoving UTG here. But not with more.


Standard raises also disguise your hands.

so open 3x from UTG. Or 4x if you really want to telegraph it. You'll get folds all the way around most times anyway. Also, there are only a few stacks that can call you. The shorter ones need to shove on you. And if someone re-raises you you can call their shove (if they are short) or shove over the re-raise if you want (though I would be hesitant ot do so with TT)

However, re-raise from a tight player might give you the warning that you only want to call and see flop, or fold.

Also, what if you held AA here. Would yo ushove that? I assume not? I think the only reason you are getting these calls is tha tpeople are seeing you shoving like this.

I've got a feeling you are running good with these lately, and am surprised both held up.


Oh yeah, last thing- if I was playing against you and saw these hands go to showdown, I'd be just sitting back and waiting to pick you off. I'd call with AK, AQs, JJ+ and maybe even KQs and expect to pick off your stack. And if you are in a hand without shoving I am going to raise, re-raise and cr you to death. (whether I have a hand or not).

Hope this doesn't sound harsh, just a critique. Net of it really seems like you aren't confident in your postflop play and should work on it.

 

[vanquish]

i like raising 2x-2.5x in these spots and then reacting to your opponents accordingly. openshoving allows them to make the optimal decision

 

[bonflizubi]

i like raising 2x-2.5x in these spots and then reacting to your opponents accordingly. openshoving allows them to make the optimal decision

This. Succinct way of saying what I said lol

 

[qwerrk]

This. Succinct way of saying what I said lol

But what you said less succinctly was very well put -- touche'!

 

[bonflizubi]

But what you said less succinctly was very well put -- touche'!

TY lol. guess he said what... I said why?

 

[baudib1]

I think the AQ is only marginally bad, but I agree TT was uber bad.

 

[silverslugger33]

There is no hand in poker that you should shove with when you have about 40 BBs left preflop with no fold in front of you. No good player would call that with anything but aces or kings. You need to be below 20 BBs before you even think about shoving and then below 10 is when that play should actually be made.

 

[cardsDontMatter]

You're all forgetting the ANTES

I am not a HarringtonBot.. but at this point in the tournament... this is where his logic makes sense...

I think the presence of antes here, makes the case for both pushes... BBs = SB + BB + Antes

22,163... AQh, his actual CPR... BBs with antes 1500 + 1250 = 9bbs!!!!

With TT, again, he's got antes, so each round is costing him 1500+1250, so, it's not 39bbs, it's actually 14BBs

Both pushes, IMO, are necessary.

Good job.

 

[LizzyJ]

The first situation where M=9, I would definately insta-shove. The second situation M=14, I would think for a second, then shove. You definately need to figure in the antes, if you don't the M value is going to be deceptively large. When the antes kick in, you need to be hyperaggro if you are in any other zone besides green. You just don't have time to wait for the nuts. With M's around 10, anything A-8 or better in middle position gets shoved.

When the antes kick in, a new phase of the game starts. You need to overcome the survival insticts and become the predator. The TAG approach isn't going to work, you will get blinded out. I know this from experience. If you wait too long your stack is going to be so low that even if you go all-in your most likely going to get called because even if you win you're not going to do damage to the bigger stacks. You need to steal and steal on a regular basis to survive.

 

[baudib1]

As I said, I think the AQs push was good actually. I used to occasionally fold AQ in spots like this but that's way too nitty. Just stealing the blinds/antes is huge and obviously I have a good enough hand if called...I def. want to see all five cards though.

The TT hand, the hand immediately after my double-up, was really marginal imo. There are spots where it is more important to win whatever pot is there and STRONGLY discourage marginal hands like AJ/KQ to fold preflop instead of taking a flop for $10,000 or so.

Certainly I'm getting it in if someone pushes over though.

 

[mfturq]

I think you speak in a tone of certainty with not enough contextual information too often imo

 

[zachvac]

Especially with the AQ, I'd consider limp-shoving sometimes. I don't know whether that's really bad or not. Basically my logic is that even in a limped pot if I hit TPTK with AQ I'm definitely willing to stack with the SPR we have. Many people like to raise limpers (including me), so the raises will be even a bit wider than usual. Obviously if villain has AK/QQ+ in either case we're ****ed.

The TT just straight up sucks. I'd probably tend to fold there. At an extremely passive table could maybe justify limping to set mine, but in general I hate open limping and I don't think a raise is really profitable there so I probably fold.

These stack sizes, where they're too big to make standard shoves (you do it anyway ) but too small to play real poker just suck imo.

 

[baudib1]

I can't believe you would open-fold TT.

There's rarely postflop poker to be played when you're down to final 16.

 

[zachvac]

I can't believe you would open-fold TT.

Yeah I'm a nit .

But in all seriousness it's not because I like folding, but I don't like any other option. Shoving gets better to call and worse to fold basically while raising 2.5-3x sucks. Either you get shoved on (which could be worse, but it's pretty marginal and you're rarely ahead although you may have odds to call the shove) or you see a flop and most flops absolutely suck. I still think limping is better than raising here with the intention to shove on a ~3-4x preflop raise.

There's rarely postflop poker to be played when you're down to final 16.

And that's why tournaments suck, when all the money difference is happening (like all the money is at the FT and all the money at the FT is at 1st place, it's a really steep scale), there's almost no postflop poker. It's almost all steals, re-steals, shoves, calls, and folds. I realize this takes skill, but it's a lot less skill than postflop play requires. Basically it's simply approximating hand ranges and using ICM. And by the time you get deep most people probably understand this anyway so it's an extremely small skill edge deciding how all the money gets distributed and you're likely to be flipping for like 20x the buy-in. My goal is to get into that spot, win the flip, then get out of MTTs permanently before the odds even out .

 

[baudib1]

Yeah, you are a nit.

First of all, this close to the FT you get all folds a huge percentage of the time. I don't mind getting shoved on in this situation. Frankly, limping into the FT with an M of 15 or less really sucks. Also, although it is stupid and frankly wrong, even this deep you will see someone cold call 1/4 of their stack or more and fold to a cbet on the flop.

LOL @ you don't think you will get shoved over or called by worse. Someone with an M of 10-12 isn't folding 88 or AJ here.

I agree 100% that there's a huge luck factor when it comes to making real money in tournaments. There is often no difference between finishing 40th and finishing 1st in huge field tournaments. The difference comes in winning the long, long grind, which is not nearly as steady as cash games and the variance is maddening. MTTs are soul crushing.

Our edges come from:
1. We play better cards than our opponents when the blinds are small in comparison to stack sizes.
2. We're more patient and aren't going to go crazy and shove ATs over a nit's UTG minraise just because we've folded 30 straight hands.
3. Our opponents play far too tight near the bubble and near the FT. Bubbling out with marginal hands in SNGs is pretty bad but it's far worse to blind away in an MTT, where bubbling is not nearly as costly.

 

[BelgoSuisse]

I like both shoves and hope to get called by AA that holds. That way i can stop playing the $^£%!!§ donkament and go back to the ring games.

On the other hand, if the point is to make money before going back to the ring, i don't like either play. I think I like a limp/shove in both cases better.

 

[baudib1]

Ring games are st000pid. I mean, I hate having to do stuff on the turn and river besides cursing when the damn A falls.

P.S. I would never limp any hand in this position other than AA.