Omaha Limit Hi help

[Aud300]

I was playing in a tourney with no re buys. I lost hand but in pot limit omaha I wanted to know if I still played it right and was unlucky.

full tilt poker Game #9543444611: $100 Freeroll (71330721), Table 89 - 40/80 - Pot Limit Omaha Hi - 14:41:59 ET - 2008/12/17
Seat 1: saladfork (8,065)
Seat 2: star_rider87 (6,077)
Seat 3: DRUNKBALL (3,810), is sitting out
Seat 4: Audric300 (6,930)
Seat 5: damightyz (3,317)
Seat 6: PainRo (19,717)
Seat 7: Albanian_Terror (2,095)
Seat 8: Jonnyquest71 (1,395), is sitting out
Seat 9: leanandmean (2,510)
Audric300 posts the small blind of 40
damightyz posts the big blind of 80
The button is in seat #3
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to Audric300 [Qd Ts 2c As]
PainRo calls 80
Albanian_Terror folds
Jonnyquest71 folds
leanandmean folds
saladfork calls 80
star_rider87 calls 80
DRUNKBALL folds
Audric300 calls 40
damightyz has 15 seconds left to act
damightyz has timed out
damightyz checks
*** FLOP *** [6s 3s Th]
damightyz is sitting out
Audric300 bets 200
damightyz folds
Jonnyquest71 has returned
PainRo calls 200
saladfork calls 200
star_rider87 calls 200
*** TURN *** [6s 3s Th] [Tc]
Audric300 bets 1,200
PainRo calls 1,200
saladfork has 15 seconds left to act
saladfork folds
star_rider87 calls 1,200
*** RIVER *** [6s 3s Th Tc] [4h]
Audric300 bets 2,400
PainRo folds
star_rider87 raises to 4,597, and is all in
Audric300 calls 2,197
*** SHOW DOWN ***
star_rider87 shows [Td 6d 5c 9c] a full house, Tens full of Sixes
Audric300 mucks
star_rider87 wins the pot (13,994) with a full house, Tens full of Sixes
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot 13,994 | Rake 0
Board: [6s 3s Th Tc 4h]
Seat 1: saladfork folded on the Turn
Seat 2: star_rider87 showed [Td 6d 5c 9c] and won (13,994) with a full house, Tens full of Sixes
Seat 3: DRUNKBALL (button) didn't bet (folded)
Seat 4: Audric300 (small blind) mucked [Qd Ts 2c As] - three of a kind, Tens
Seat 5: damightyz (big blind) folded on the Flop
Seat 6: PainRo folded on the River
Seat 7: Albanian_Terror didn't bet (folded)
Seat 8: Jonnyquest71 didn't bet (folded)
Seat 9: leanandmean didn't bet (folded)


I am on tilt for the rest of the tourney because I felt I played it pretty good.

 

[young hova]

I dont know how loose the villains were that you were playing with, but I think you bet too much on the turn, a 600-800 bet accomplishes the same thing that bet you made on the turn does and it saves you chips. If you considered the villain to be solid player, people are only going to call big bets (or sizeable bets in general) on a PAIRED board, when they have either naked trips (like you), or they already have a boat. Villain played this deceptively because he couldve easily raised you on the flop, but he may have put you on a stronger hand than his on the flop and just wanted to call to see what you would do on later streets.

Regardless of your bet on the turn, if the villain can call your turn bet you HAVE TO CHECK, if you don't fill up on the river here. If you thought your hand was good here thats fine, but you don't have to bet it, because any pot bet will commit you and you have to consider what the villain has, he's likely to only bet big on the river if he already has a boat. In situations like these if the villain can call big bets on a paired turn, you have to c/c or c/f the river if you don't have the nuts. because even when he doesn't have the regular boat he'll still call you with underfulls too there with the size of that bet.

So if called on a paired turn, check the river , so you get an opportunity to decide how much you want to call, if its in the ball park range where you like and you still think your hand is good you can call, but remember this: its a good chance if the villain has naked trips here, or the straight he may check it or value bet it, so more than likely when he's betting on the river and he's stayed with you this long on this board he's going to have you beat, even if its the straight.

BTW, I say bet lesser on the turn because you don't wanna make the pot to big without the boat there also. I've already stated what he's likely to have calling that size bet on the turn, but you have to protect yourself by not helping to create a big pot when your hand is not necessarily that big because you are OOP. The more you bet the more you are putting yourself in deeper water/potentially pot committing your self, you bet 6-800, you'll still get the same results (fold or call wise), and you protect yourself by limiting the amount you can lose by decreasing the pot size.

 

[baudib1]

Standard Omaha cooler.

 

[Divebitch]

Young Hova is spot on on every point. You did good to raise your set, but a 500 bet could accomplish the same thing. You have to wonder how a huge 1200 bet was called. I know it's crazy in a freeroll, and sometimes hard to get reads on your opponents if you switch tables.

The only thing I can add about your hand is that your opponent took full advantage of his late position, and played it beautifully. Personally, I would have put him on 33 or 66, since you already had a 10. As it turns out, he's got the absolute nuts, a 10 plus next highest card on the board, the 6. But he'd still have had you beat with 33 or 66. Anyway, there's no reason for him to reraise when you'll do it (and he certainly doesn't want PainRo to fold too soon either), as there is $$$ still to be made on the river.

 

[Divebitch]

i forgot to mention that's the reason why omaha is usually played hi,low.
if you are going to be playing omaha you should learn how to play razz if you wanna make a profit out of it.

I don't think that's quite true. PLO, I believe, is the original or most popular 'purist' form of Omaha. There are books, many of them fairly old, that just deal with PLO, nothing more. Probably some Omaha pros or purists even consider hi/lo to be a silly variation. Don't get me wrong, I love Omaha h/l. But seems a lot of some folks' experience w/Omaha is through HORSE (h/l limit). I've seen many people 'assume' you're talking about H/L if not mentioned. It's actually the opposite. When you refer to 'Omaha', assume 'hi' unless told otherwise. At any rate, the OP was asking about a PLO hand, not h/l. Further, I think razz is very different from the 'lo' part of Omaha. There is ALWAYS a winning razz hand (not so in O h/l), usually for 100% of the pot (not so in O h/l).

Totally agree on your other comments. Whenever the board is paired, if you don't have it, or have a pair in the hole of the 'other' card, get ready to fold. Don't lead out big unless you've got at least a boat of SOME sort.

 

[OzExorcist]

i forgot to mention that's the reason why omaha is usually played hi,low.
if you are going to be playing omaha you should learn how to play razz if you wanna make a profit out of it.

Erm... PLO is played a lot more than PLO8, and I'm not quite sure what learning Razz has to do with anything, other than using the same hand rankings. In which case you may as well say learn to play ace-to-five draw. Otherwise, a limit stud game is very different to a pot-limit flop game.

As for the hand:

On an Omaha flop I don't really regard TPTK as a real hand, so we're very much playing this for the drawing potential. We have the one decent draw so I don't mind bettig it. I might have bet slightly less though, giving ourselves the right odds when we get called. Say maybe 160, half the pot. Otherwise I'd bet somewhere around 300-320 to thin the field some. Betting somewhere in between those amounts doesn't really accomplish much, IMO - we're putting in more than we need to to get good drawing odds, but we're not cutting out competition.

We've improved on the turn, but I still don't love our hand and I hate our position. We're no longer drawing to the nuts and it's possible we're beat already. Not likely, but possible. We need to think about the kind of hands people called us with on the flop too. We have the only spade draw worth having, so it's more likely we're up against sets or low straight draws. I'd probably play it a little slower on the turn - probably betting around the 800 mark, or maybe check-calling to see what the other players do.

On the river I probably check and maybe call a reasonable bet (given that I've probably kept the pot smaller on earlier streets, so a reasonable bet will be a smaller portion of our stack).

As played, fold to the shove.

Think about it - what hands that we beat are shoving over the top of us on that river? I don't think there's any way one or two pair can call us there, let alone shove over the top (unless you've got a read that they're completely awful - this is a freeroll, after all). Which leaves us with Txxx with a worse kicker. I'd imagine that would have just called you though. And everything else (low straights and boats) has you crushed.

We may have had a good NLHE hand, but by the river we only had a mediocre PLO hand.

 

[young hova]

The only thing I can add about your hand is that your opponent took full advantage of his late position, and played it beautifully. Personally, I would have put him on 33 or 66, since you already had a 10. As it turns out, he's got the absolute nuts, a 10 plus next highest card on the board, the 6. But he'd still have had you beat with 33 or 66. Anyway, there's no reason for him to reraise when you'll do it (and he certainly doesn't want PainRo to fold too soon either), as there is $$$ still to be made on the river.

Yeah thats right on too, and villain definitely did play it beautifully, although I think he's taking a little bit of a risk not raising the turn unless he knows you because any over cards to that 6 (except a 9 which hits him) are somewhat scare cards and it possibly deters what villain can do on the river bet wise unless he just figures he's good. I wonder what the villain would have done here if an A or Q came up if you made the same bet, I wouldn't be surprised if he still shoves all in over top here thinking his hand is good, we'll never know. I'm thinking the way he played it he planned on raising regardless of what the river came. When the ten comes, he may actually put you on having a weak set there at that point, but who knows what he is thinking. At the same time he's got position so he can pretty much put in a good size bet, knowing if he gets checkraised all in chances are he is beat if the player is playing a straightforward game out of position to any over cards to his boat

On an Omaha flop I don't really regard TPTK as a real hand, so we're very much playing this for the drawing potential. We have the one decent draw so I don't mind bettig it. I might have bet slightly less though, giving ourselves the right odds when we get called. Say maybe 160, half the pot. Otherwise I'd bet somewhere around 300-320 to thin the field some. Betting somewhere in between those amounts doesn't really accomplish much, IMO - we're putting in more than we need to to get good drawing odds, but we're not cutting out competition.

definitely take heed to that, you don't want to cut your competition out here, you just want to juice the pot up a little. If this was a cash game you could argue differently, but this is a tournament where one move can devastate your tournament life.

I'd probably play it a little slower on the turn - probably betting around the 800 mark, or maybe check-calling to see what the other players do.

Just to add to this, NEVER checkraise on that board without having it on the turn (unless you are virtually sure your read is spot on). If you don't have it your best bet is to bet it to represent it, or check it when you have it to set the trap.

Check-calling is a very interesting thing on turn, because it depends on what the villain does on the turn and what your read is of him. Most people would probably tell you to check call regardless of the size of the bet. I'm not even sure if your bet was pot max on the turn I'm figuring that it is. Lets assume you play the check call. he bets pot (1200, or if its more than that it makes matters worse), if your pretty sure thats not a bluff than you have to realize you only have 6 outs to guarantee you victory on the river (or 10 if you want to say a 10 is an out to quads if you put him on a middle set, because before he showed 10s full you could assume you have that extra out possibly and any of the 3 2's would help if he's got a middle to low set). Clearly there is a big difference in pot odds if he has 10s full (you have 6 outs) compared to a middle set (you have 10 outs), and of course its not necessarily going to be easy to know which one these he has. Either way from a Pot odds standpoint, not really in your favor to call a potsized bet on the turn, especially when villain has 10s full. For the sake of argument heres some percentages (all are percentages ran on the turn alone, you were slight favorite on the flop).

Courtesy of cardplayer.com
1. when villain holds hand he had he is 85% favorite, the odds don't change here if he had 10s full of 3 because all your current outs either beat the board or are under the board. If your 2 was say a 4 and he had 10's full of 3 villains percentage would be slightly less
2. When villain has middle set on the turn (I put 6h 3d 6d 9c) he is a 75% favorite, odds are exactly the same if you replace the 6h with 3h (which now gives villain bottom set)

Summing it up when you call you should understand your OOP, and a 3:1 underdog at best, and about 5.6 to 1 on the turn when he's got 10s full here. So from a POT ODDS standpoint, if dude bets pot and you believe it considering your chipstack you can strongly consider folding knowing this and considering your stack really isn't THAT deep.

From an implied odds standpoint, well the turn is screaming call regardless of what he bets. I think that any reasonable bet is obviously an automatic call, I'm only referring to potsized bets in this specific situation though. your stack isn't really deep, but blinds are still low to the point where its not going to hurt you too much really call considering the implied odds, but at the same time remember this, the only time it will really be safe for you to bet is when you hit one of your 6 outs (a or q), any other card you bet you could get shoved on and potentially commit yourself. Even if you hit a 2 you could get shoved on so you can't bet that and when he shoves, he won't have you beat every time, but he will definitely have you beat a vast majority of the time there. Those percentages were from a standpoint of knowing exactly what the villain has, you don't know what the villain has and your out of position so you can only bet the nuts without getting shoved potentially on the river, so your playing to 6 outs in that case, which makes you the 5.6 : 1 underdog going to the river based on those percentages. So definitely understand the difference of calling a pot bet there on the turn compared to a 600 chip bet....

Pot Odds vs Implied odds on the turn is what you need to understand if he bets pot, because your personality is going to lean to one of those to help you make a decision. I think its an endless argument for both sides here but its just good to know everything here when faced with a decision like this. Personally I think the more logical answer based on your chipsize, your oop, and your outs to the nuts, I think pot odds outweighs the implied odds given all the variables in this situation if he bets pot on the turn when you check. Don't forget its alot of cards that come that don't give you the nuts that give you a hand you like when he has 10s full that make you lose a lot more of your stack on the river too.

This is why you always bet imo, not only because you've represented the hand which gives you the potential to pick it up there when villains don't have the hand, but when he does, the villain usually only raises you when your beat on the turn, in that case you obviously know you fold to a huge raise. So by betting you get to determine the amount you pay to fish for your boat, if you leave it up to him you better be sure/hope that he's the type to bet weak. Plus when you check you run the risk of the villain winning the pot if he's the type two fire too shells turn and river when he doesn't have it, villain's not going to float a paired board on you without out knowing you real well and even when he knows its very rare he's gonna float that on you at a full ring tourney, but if you give him a chance to bet it you best believe he's gonna to take that check as weakness and 2 shells fired will make a river bet pretty damn hard to decipher if you end with naked trips. This same hand situation could arise, and if your playing tight out of position, you could have him beat when he doesn't have a boat, now you decide to check if he bluffs twice turn and river because he took you for weakness you will be hard pressed to call with just trips, omaha's not really a river calling game anyway, its more of a raise or fold street, your better off raising with a weaker hand than calling with it, thats neither here nor there in this situation though.

 

[Divebitch]

Yeah thats right on too, and villain definitely did play it beautifully, although I think he's taking a little bit of a risk not raising the turn unless he knows you because any over cards to that 6 (except a 9 which hits him) are somewhat scare cards and it possibly deters what villain can do on the river bet wise unless he just figures he's good. I wonder what the villain would have done here if an A or Q came up if you made the same bet, I wouldn't be surprised if he still shoves all in over top here thinking his hand is good, we'll never know. I'm thinking the way he played it he planned on raising regardless of what the river came. When the ten comes, he may actually put you on having a weak set there at that point, but who knows what he is thinking.

All excellent points here. We don't know what he's thinking. Villain might be playing conservatively after the turn, 1) hoping for no scare cards, then shove away or 2) thinking hero would call any reraise, putting him at risk should a scare card come. But I wouldn't be surprised either for a shove anyway. For all we know, he could be putting hero on a 33 (as I mentioned before, since he had the 3rd 10), and drawing dead (ok, 1 out for quads). But we don't. And after all, it is a freeroll.

 

[Aud300]

Guys, Thank you for the great info on this. as you can tell the Omaha is not my best game. The Player I lost too was very loose since you saw his hand as well.

 

[xCipx]

ya i think it was a little too agressive also, the only problem with omaha is there are SOOO many outs that you have too think of. Especually if you have trip 10's with a ace kicker, chances are you will probably loose cause somone else at your ten man table has a 10, and another card that hit on the board giving them a full house. Usully when im playing omaha, i really do not push without having a str8 or better cause with 4 cards between 9-10 people there are always bettter cards out there