next degree of thinking hand

stormswa

stormswa

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This is a hand from one of my video's. I want you to tell me if you like this play then explain why or why you dont. Let me just tell you that you really need to think about this.

5 left of a $30 buy in
you have been chip leader for awhile now.

hand

cutoff and UTG fold
blinds 3k/6k
button - 81595
you - 349619 (yes that is right)
BB - 12370

ok everyone at this table is real weak but BB is very very weak, she/he had folded her blinds before and left her/him with like 2-3 big blinds. We had taken pot from pot from her.

ok so you have 3c/9s and button opens for 24k and the big blind after posting the blind has 6370. What do you do?

so here is what he does had pushes all in, why is this bad or good? I will answer this tomorrow. But there is a clear cut answer why this is a good or bad play and it makes alot of sense. so guess you all figured out its good play but tell me why?
 
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blankoblanco

blankoblanco

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Is that the amount button had before or after the raise? Makes a pretty huge difference. I'll assume you did it the "proper and accepted way", in which case it should be before the raise.

Apparently you think the button is weak enough to fold because he doesn't want to be the next player out, and he'll almost surely move up a payout spot if he doesn't tangle with you, because BB is near dead. Even when BB calls off their stack and you lose, you'll make a profit off the hand so long as the button folds. If you know button plays weakly enough for this to work the fair majority of the time, it can be a good play (you did say the table was weak).

Just note this shouldn't work too often against a decent player. If any reasonably good player raises 4 BBs (more than needed to get the job done if he's on a steal) from the button with that stack, they should be committed to calling any re-raise with the odds they'll be receiving. If he's not willing to do that, he shouldn't have raised, or at the very least raised less. Tournaments are very top heavy; at this point he should be playing to win. Not to mention (again, hypothetically if he were any good) he might figure the very likely scenario that you're trying to be a bully with the big stack.

But again, with a very specific read on a player's weakness, which you seemed to have had, I can see this being profitable
 
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S

Shandy

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Interesting question. IMO, since you say the BB is so weak, they are going to see a raise and then a reraise allin, and feel (incorrectly) that they need a huge hand to call and fold, also if they fold the button may call allin and go out, so they will move up a place by folding, so will probably fold even huge hands, as tripling up isn't going to help them much any more, but moving up a place would. So now the button is going to be faced with possibly going out in 5th if he calls, but if he folds he is almost guaranteed at least 4th, would be interesting to know the other 2 stacks as you said there were 5 left, as this would give us a better idea if he is able to lay down a huge hand here.
 
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J

joeeagles

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I think the push is the right move because BB will make it so whatever he does.

You say he is a weak player, now when he sees your shove after button has put 24k in this pot, there is a good chance BB will FOLD this. His hope is that button feels he has to call your push, and if he gets knocked out in the process BB will climb 1 spot in the pay ladder. After BB folds, button will not want to risk the call anymore because his pay, if he loses, will be less than BB's pay, whom he already counted as dead.

In the more unlikely case that BB calls, then the button will fold because of pay ladder, so you would either go even in this hand or win a nice amount of chips.

This is a winning move (the shove) however you look it, with a risk so low that it is justified every time. You'll get a call from the button only if he has aces, if not he'll fold this whatever the BB does (chances are pretty high BB folds this).
 
stormswa

stormswa

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you guys are pretty on so I will answer now.

ok so basically we are freerolling this hand, the buttons raise means that there is dead money in the pot that the big blind can not win because he/she only has 1k left in stack. The button would need a absolute monster to call this seeing as he/she doesnt want to go out before the big blind seeing as it is obvious she/he will be out next.


In the actual hand we re-raise and the big blind calls us and the button folds. The big blind shows AA (which is funny because of how nitty she/he plays she might of folded any other hand and get blinded in, yes she is that nitty). We end up sucking out on river with river 3 but that is not important because like I said we were freerolling this hand because we were pretty sure button was folding.
 
Egon Towst

Egon Towst

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Brian, what happens if BB calls ?

I`d suggest that it would then be correct for Button to also call with almost any hand (and he must have had a hand to open strongly like that).

From his point of view, if he wins great. If you win, that`s okay too, because it takes out both of them and clinches his second place. The only thing that can hurt him is if BB wins the main pot and you win the side (surely an unlikely outcome).

So, he must call and there is a good chance that you have just given him enough free chips to give him some play and an opportunity to threaten your lead.

I would probably push in your position too, but only because you say BB is very weak and can be expected to fold, whereupon Button should also fold. This move is problematic if BB calls.
 
stormswa

stormswa

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Brian, what happens if BB calls ?

the big blind did call but with the raise from the button we are freerolling against the big blind.

I`d suggest that it would then be correct for Button to also call with almost any hand (and he must have had a hand to open strongly like that).

if he happens to call we have him covered by like 200k. but like I said his raise could be alot of marginal hands he is raising from the button because he knows the big blind is most likely going out this hand. He dosent want to go out before the big blind because of the money jump so he needs a absolute monster to call AA,KK,QQ or AK tops.

From his point of view, if he wins great. If you win, that`s okay too, because it takes out both of them and clinches his second place. The only thing that can hurt him is if BB wins the main pot and you win the side (surely an unlikely outcome).

the big blind calling or not is pretty unimportant right now, the button does not want to go out before the big blind so if big blind folds button will fold knowing the big blind will be out most likely next hand. If big blind calls same thing.

So, he must call and there is a good chance that you have just given him enough free chips to give him some play and an opportunity to threaten your lead.

even if big blind wins it dont matter because he is still way way low on chips. if he wins he will still have like 36k in chips I believe. That is 10 big blinds and remember he is a nit and we can take chips from him, and again the button is folding enough of the times to make this profitable.

answers in red
 
Egon Towst

Egon Towst

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Maybe I have explained myself badly, or maybe I have misunderstood something, but it seems to me that Button folds if BB folds and calls if BB calls. It`s pretty much automatic.

It is definitely how I would play were I Button, and I wouldn`t need a monster. A three-way all-in suits Button very well in this scenario. As I said earlier, from his point of view it makes him a big favourite to clinch his second place right there.

If he were content to sit back weakly and fold until BB blinds out, logically he should not have opened this hand for a raise. It says he wants to play.

I think it`s clear that Button played this hand wrongly. Your raise is correct given your reads, his response is poor.
 
stormswa

stormswa

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Maybe I have explained myself badly, or maybe I have misunderstood something, but it seems to me that Button folds if BB folds and calls if BB calls. It`s pretty much automatic.

It is definitely how I would play were I Button, and I wouldn`t need a monster. A three-way all-in suits Button very well in this scenario. As I said earlier, from his point of view it makes him a big favourite to clinch his second place right there.

If he were content to sit back weakly and fold until BB blinds out, logically he would not have opened this hand for a raise. He wants to play.


there are still 5 people left, that might change your thinking, if button loses he is out 4th place tops. If he folds and I win then he is still in playing with decent stack and will have plenty of chips.

his raise from the button dosent really show big strength, if he was really strong he would raise all in to get heads up with big blind. We only make this play if the big blind is as short as he/she is. We are pretty sure button is folding this because of the money. I agree if its 3 handed its a decent call but seeing as 5 people left it isnt.
 
Egon Towst

Egon Towst

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Aha, I am a fool. :eek:

All of my remarks are based on the assumption that this was three-handed. I failed to realise that there are two others sitting this hand out. In that case, of course you are correct and Button must fold.
 
stormswa

stormswa

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Aha, I am a fool. :eek:

All of my remarks are based on the assumption that this was three-handed. I failed to realise that there are two others sitting this hand out. In that case, of course you are correct and Button must fold.

I was going to write up a detailed reason why but since you get it no point in it I guess. I might anyway later.
 
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