MP with pair on the board

[t1riel]

pokerstars Game #9022048375: Tournament #45865681, $1.00+$0.20 Hold'em No Limit - Level III (25/50) - 2007/03/21 - 20:39:25 (ET)
Table '45865681 5' 9-max Seat #2 is the button
Seat 2: bertuzzifan (1560 in chips)
Seat 3: MissWoogie (1225 in chips)
Seat 5: t1riel (3515 in chips)
Seat 6: ditsch24 (1150 in chips)
Seat 7: Buddahjoe (740 in chips)
Seat 9: bucnasty7 (5310 in chips)
MissWoogie: posts small blind 25
t1riel: posts big blind 50
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to t1riel [Js 9c]
gus1237534 is connected
ditsch24: calls 50
Buddahjoe: calls 50
rowen14 is connected
bucnasty7: folds
MACY66 is connected
bertuzzifan: calls 50
MissWoogie: calls 25
t1riel: checks
*** FLOP *** [Jh Qh Qc]
MissWoogie: checks
t1riel: bets 300

Good move? Bet too small? What would you do in this situation?

 

[joosebuck]

reads? i dont like to stab OOP here without a good read when there are 5 people in this pot. you're not far ahead of even draws and likely behind combo draws, i dont think this is a +EV move.

 

[t1riel]

reads?

None. I was moved there recently and only observe a few hands which my opponent did not play.

 

[joosebuck]

you're only ahead of K10 (not of hearts) or J10 right now. i can see maybe check calling a flop bet if you're closing action - but leading out will prolly only get you called by a Queen/Monster Draw/Stronger Jack.

you could maybe induce a bluff from an underpair or nut heart draw, but with this many people in the hand i think check/fold is probably your only real option.

 

[hott_estelle]

OOooooo---J9 from this position. Very tricky.

Um, I don't mind your bet there, as a feeler bet, but from MP, there isn't much you can do with it. I would have probably bet out about 150-200 and go from there. Betting out 6xBB or 300, for me, would seem a bit much considering how many other people are still in the pot and your position on this hand. If you bet out about 150-200 (3-4xBB) and get reraised here from any position, I think you'll have enough information to gauge your status in the hand.

I don't think there's any need to commit more chips than the minimum amout when you're trying to raise for information. I think a 150-200 bet here does that just as much as a 300 bet here would, without having to commit 100 more chips to the pot. I know it isn't too significant amount in this situation, but in many other situations you encounter, when raising for information there's no need to commit more than the minimum amount of chips needed in order to gain that information.

 

[joosebuck]

nah ill play back at someone betting this out with just about any hand from the button. betting out bottom pair poor kicker is just a bad idea.

 

[hott_estelle]

Yes, most of the time, betting out bottom pair, poor kicker is a bad idea--in most situations. However, there are situations, such as this one, where most of the time on a paired board, betting out is the smart play. On a paired board, agression or the first better normally takes control of the hand, and a bet of about 4xBB in that size of a pot should do that. It isn't too big of a bet to lose much at all, but it is big enough to scare away any possible limpers and Ax or Kx hands away from this hand.

I would agree with you joose in most cases with this type of hand, but not in this situation. On a paired board, betting out the J9 here is the right play.

 

[joosebuck]

most paired boards - yes. uncoordinated boards, definetly. but not one that's so draw heavy. there are tons of hands that could be calling you that are drawing that are even ahead of you. these hands will [for the most part] be played the same as most people will play a queen here. call, raise, value bet the river. i dont think we can gain enough information out of position to really be involved here.

 

[ztw30]

Idk i would have bet out but...a little more..then show cation with a raise or all-in

 

[joosebuck]

why, though? you arent going to make any better hands fold. it's too draw heavy and you have too little information (you're acting 2nd!!! with 3 left to act) to be stabbing at such a scary board.

 

[alan1983]

Id definitely bet.

If its checked around and a k or ace comes on turn, then my hand isnt worth anything.

if its checked and someone in position bets, youre very likely to have the better hand so im not gonna fold it.

So id rather bet out, show a bit of "initiative" which would then help me better understand what others do after.

 

[tosborn]

.....you arent going to make any better hands fold.

^This.

No Reads. OOP. check/fold or check/call if pot odds justify.