Low-M situations: utg push with...

ChuckTs

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Sorry I haven't continued this little low-M series of hands, but I hadn't played many turbos lately, and hence didn't encounter many interesting low-M situations.

Anyways, on to the hand: we've just lost a big pot the hand before, and are now next to dead in chips.

pokerstars GAME #10038056968: TOURNAMENT #50596820, $3.00+$0.30 HOLD'EM NO LIMIT - LEVEL XX (10000/20000) - 2007/05/21 - 19:37:57 (ET)
Table '50596820 183' 9-max Seat #6 is the button
Seat 1: RiverReaper (1794662 in chips)
Seat 2: Pokr_Pirate (525017 in chips)
Seat 3: TheSunburn (469095 in chips)
Seat 4: beagle63 (158748 in chips)
Seat 5: xTheWall (270046 in chips)
Seat 6: danuk (178660 in chips)
Seat 7: winnahr (151110 in chips)
Seat 8: bakosa (680224 in chips)
Seat 9: ChuckTs (69114 in chips)
RiverReaper: posts the ante 1000
Pokr_Pirate: posts the ante 1000
TheSunburn: posts the ante 1000
beagle63: posts the ante 1000
xTheWall: posts the ante 1000
danuk: posts the ante 1000
winnahr: posts the ante 1000
bakosa: posts the ante 1000
ChuckTs: posts the ante 1000
winnahr: posts small blind 10000
bakosa: posts big blind 20000
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to ChuckTs [X X]
ChuckTs: ...

The table's been fairly tight, and we've been tight along with them.

What should our pushing range be here?
 
Last edited:
Schatzdog

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Shouldn't it be any two? Once the blinds go through us we are down to around 1 BB aren't we?
 
Debi

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Our is a big word lol. Mine would probably be very limited because of being the first to bet. QQ, KK, AA. Yea I know it isn't much - but with no clue what's out there yet and all those big stacks on the table that is the best I can do.
 
Debi

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Shouldn't it be any two? Once the blinds go through us we are down to around 1 BB aren't we?

And there is the other end of the spectrum lol. But yea - I forgot to look at the blind sizes which is crucial. I still couldn't go with any 2 - it would have to be middle pair or better, and AK.

Of course I usually get beat at this point in these things too. But I have decided as part of my learning process I need to start posting what I would do so I can compare it to the rest of you who do well in these tournaments. And I can hear why I am wrong lol.
 
DeadoneD1

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any pp...also AK,AQ,AJ,A10 all-in preflop

Im probably wrong but ??
 
Dorkus Malorkus

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I'd have pushed ATC the hand before with the shorties in the blinds (unless the 'big loss' was the immediately previous hand - too lazy to check).

Mind you, you still have to push ATC here and make the most of the last fraction of fold equity you have. Next hand you're BB and will be practically forced into the pot with no FE. Let the blinds go through you and your stack is halved and you have no FE.
 
ChuckTs

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I'd have pushed ATC the hand before with the shorties in the blinds (unless the 'big loss' was the immediately previous hand - too lazy to check).

It was the hand directly before this, sorry for not being clear. OP edited.
 
ChuckTs

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Our is a big word lol. Mine would probably be very limited because of being the first to bet. QQ, KK, AA. Yea I know it isn't much - but with no clue what's out there yet and all those big stacks on the table that is the best I can do.

And there is the other end of the spectrum lol. But yea - I forgot to look at the blind sizes which is crucial. I still couldn't go with any 2 - it would have to be middle pair or better, and AK.

Of course I usually get beat at this point in these things too. But I have decided as part of my learning process I need to start posting what I would do so I can compare it to the rest of you who do well in these tournaments. And I can hear why I am wrong lol.

lol debi...hence why you're a 2-3% PF raiser ;)

Our range should be huge; I'm just not sure how big. Like schatz said, we'll be even more dead should we fold here and let the blinds hit us again.

We're at a point with our chipstack that we should never get to if we have the choice, and letting the blinds hit us will only make us shorter stacked.
 
skoldpadda

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Well average hand is Q7. Next hand you're in it pretty much with the BB. So any hand that is better than Q7 or any suited connectors or 1 gappers down to 57.
 
hott_estelle

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I think suited connectors are auto push, obv any marginal hand like KQ or A10, low PPs, and the premium hands are also auto push. I think any suited ace is an auto push, and even almost any Ace here. Huge range, sorry Deb, but if you're only pushing with QQ, KK, or AA here, then well Chuck said it best, that's why you're 2-3% preflop raiser. You have to adjust your style for certain situations.

In this given situation, even for you Deb, you should be pushing with any marginal, decent looking two-cards.

Our range on this hand is huge. Not much can really be frowned upon as a bad push.
 
Debi

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I think suited connectors are auto push, obv any marginal hand like KQ or A10, low PPs, and the premium hands are also auto push. I think any suited ace is an auto push, and even almost any Ace here. Huge range, sorry Deb, but if you're only pushing with QQ, KK, or AA here, then well Chuck said it best, that's why you're 2-3% preflop raiser. You have to adjust your style for certain situations.

In this given situation, even for you Deb, you should be pushing with any marginal, decent looking two-cards.

Our range on this hand is huge. Not much can really be frowned upon as a bad push.


Yea - I didn't pay attention to the blind level before my first post - but even after I noticed that - though I would play more hands - I still wouldn't have played this range of hands. That is why I am forcing myself into these posts and trying to be honest about how I would play it - so I can get this kind of feedback. I want to start playing more MTT's - but I am going to do a bit of this kind of posting first so I can try to go in with a new game plan. I might feel a bit dumb sometimes - but just hearing "raise more" isn't getting me there. So here's to baring my poker soul lol.....

Chuck the pfr% (3.25) you have for me is on cash tables which is quite different - still too low I know lol, but in tournaments it is 6.14%, starts off low in early stages and much higher as the blinds increase.

I have another question but will post it in a new thread so this one stays on track.
 
Stefanicov

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:) Tbh i push any ace 10 or better any pp kq kj and the such possiblt qj suited but tht is where it becomes more of a decision. major point is i would want to get my money in with blinds to win. To wait till the next hand hurts because then we are pushing to win back our own money rather than someone elses
 
robwhufc

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You need to push in the next 7 hands to have any chance (you're obviously in a pretty desperate position, but if you wait til the blinds come round, you wont have enough chips even if you do get through OK). I'd look for a good hand here, as the BB will call with any 2 (assuming it gets to him unraised, I dont think your opponents will particulary put you on a big hand). I'd wait until one of the 100-200K players were in the BB and then go all-in if you could get in first. Could be that you just wont be able to get into a hand and be forced to go through the blinds, but i'd be looking a gap based on the table situation, and not worry about the cards.
 
shinedown.45

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You need to push in the next 7 hands to have any chance (you're obviously in a pretty desperate position, but if you wait til the blinds come round, you wont have enough chips even if you do get through OK). I'd look for a good hand here, as the BB will call with any 2 (assuming it gets to him unraised, I dont think your opponents will particulary put you on a big hand). I'd wait until one of the 100-200K players were in the BB and then go all-in if you could get in first. Could be that you just wont be able to get into a hand and be forced to go through the blinds, but i'd be looking a gap based on the table situation, and not worry about the cards.
He UTG rob, he has to push now
 
tenbob

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I think any two here. I include hands like 32o here, at least you have a nice chance of being live. We are UTG, pushing here with any 2 is definetly than having to call the inevitable blind steal appempt with any 2.
 
ChuckTs

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I won't argue with pushing any two here, nor will I argue with waiting for at least a connector or one gapper, or a decent face card.

For what it's worth, I folded Q3 here, grudgingly. I think pushing might have been the better play, but I think I was just praying that I picked up a better hand in the BB.

I didn't. 68o in the BB, I get pushed, I have to call based on pot odds, I lose to J9o.
 
ChuckTs

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Chuck the pfr% (3.25) you have for me is on cash tables which is quite different - still too low I know lol, but in tournaments it is 6.14%, starts off low in early stages and much higher as the blinds increase.


lol, I was just ribbing you, Debi. Even so, your range does need to be much bigger here. fyi, my MTT PFR% gets as low as %8 in the early stages, but then I start really loosening up in the middle and later stages.

Have you read the Harrington on Holdem series? They pretty much taught me everything I know about low-M play. It should really help you.
 
Debi

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lol, I was just ribbing you, Debi. Even so, your range does need to be much bigger here. fyi, my MTT PFR% gets as low as %8 in the early stages, but then I start really loosening up in the middle and later stages.

Have you read the Harrington on Holdem series? They pretty much taught me everything I know about low-M play. It should really help you.

I know - taken in good humor. We all know I have raising issues lol. The question I was gonna ask in another thread I will just ask here since you have already posted your results.

I wanted to know what kind of PFR% I should be averaging? In cash games I mostly play $10 and $25NL - have been doing well in $25 NL so will prob play that mostly. Tournaments - I mostly play the CC games and some $5 and $10 sng's sometimes, though not often. (9, 18 or 27 player).

I started the HOH vol 1 on the plane coming home from England in March and got through part 1 and 2. I was really enjoying it but I have trouble focusing when I read, so have a lot of difficulty in retaining. I will need to take notes I think. It works great on planes lol. So maybe when I go to Reno I can finish it. (At this point I think I will need to read the first 2 parts again.) I will try to get into it again before then - I know it will help me.
 
ChuckTs

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I wanted to know what kind of PFR% I should be averaging?

Well that's one of those really general questions, Daks. I don't think I could give you a specific number here, but if you take a look at Utilities/Autorate Players, then go to the "Step 2 - Rules" tab, it'll show you what they use to classify each player.

This again is very general, and like anything poker-related, it all depends on your table conditions. ie Do we have tight or looser players at the table, how many players are at the table, what are stack sizes, etc etc.

I started the HOH vol 1 on the plane coming home from England in March and got through part 1 and 2. I was really enjoying it but I have trouble focusing when I read, so have a lot of difficulty in retaining. I will need to take notes I think. It works great on planes lol. So maybe when I go to Reno I can finish it. (At this point I think I will need to read the first 2 parts again.) I will try to get into it again before then - I know it will help me.

I have that same problem. I often find myself 'reading' through a page, only to see that I haven't taken anything in from the last 10 pages, and I have to go back and read it again.

Taking notes should help - so should highlighting the actual book.
 
Debi

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Well that's one of those really general questions, Daks. I don't think I could give you a specific number here, but if you take a look at Utilities/Autorate Players, then go to the "Step 2 - Rules" tab, it'll show you what they use to classify each player.


Thanks - I did that just now, it is very interesting information. (oh - and for the record your pfr% in the hands I have on you is not much higher than mine - you scared when I am at the table?? lol)
 
gord962

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Sorry, I didn't read the responses as I am just too lazy at the moment.

I would say any pocket pair, any face card with 7+ kicker, any two suited cards and any two connectors.
 
TheMaster88

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Mostly any 2 cards with the blinds so high. I wouldn't play any 2 cards but, as ChuckTs said, I wouldn't argue against it. You got to have a massive hand selection here but unfortunately, Q3 is not one of them so a fair fold. I reckon a push next hand with any 2 cards should be done (seeing your in the big blind).https://www.cardschat.com/../../members/chuckts/
 
dj11

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My thinking here is that UTG, extreme low M, you have no luxuries here. As long as the 2 cards dealt to you are face down, shove it.

There is the possibility of sitting through the blinds here, but that puts the hand on the plug to pull your life support. However, it would give you one more orbit to find something that has a chance.
 
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