Live 48 player tourney, ITM, turned a small boat

[Genso Hikki]

48 person live tourney, started with 8 players at 6 tables each with 10,000 in chips. 50 dollar buy in, pays out top 5 places.

Blinds started at 100 & 200 and double every 25 minutes. There are five players left at the final table (all in the money). Pay out structure as follows:

1st: 900
2nd: 660
3rd: 480
4th: 240
5th: 120

Stack Sizes:

SB: 60,000
BB: 140,000
UTG: 50,000
CO (hero): 120,000
BTN: 110,000

Blinds are at 2,000 and 4,000

Dealt to Hero: As, 10s

SB posts 2,000
BB posts 4,000
UTG folds
Hero raises to 14,000
BTN folds
SB calls
BB calls

Pot size is 44,000

FLOP:
10d, Qd, 10c

SB checks
BB checks
Hero bets 25,000
SB calls
BB calls

Pot size is 119,000

Turn:
Qc

SB bets 21,000 and is all in
BB raises to 101,000 and is all in
Hero???

Reads on players:
I’ve never played with the SB before, but he’s been playing ultra-tight, which is why he’s the short stack.

I’ve played a lot with the BB, and he’s very hard to read. He’s a very aggressive player and could be shoving here with a diamond or club draw to get me off my hand, but it’s just as likely he called my pre-flop raise with something like K,Q or Q,J.

Of course, the only thing that beats me here is a Queen. If I call and the SB has the queen, I’ll still win the side pot and have more chips than I started out with, plus I’ll cripple the BB who was the only player with a bigger stack than mine before the hand started. If I call and the BB has a queen, I’m gone with 4th place money (assuming the SB doesn’t have the case queen and gets knocked out as well). If I fold, I’ll have 81,000 left in my stack.

What should I do? Also - should I have bet more than half the pot when I flopped three tens?

 

[Jillychemung]

IMHO one of the two has to have a Q or they both do. If you fold now you still can move up as SB & UTG will still be smaller stacks if the pot is chopped.

With the 2 diamonds on the flop a full pot bet would be called for but since that would be almost half of your remaining stack I think I would have pushed.

 

[hpn]

more likely ur beaten here, and u can still fold. Atleast this is what i would do.

 

[switch0723]

should be a simple fold here, the BB wouldn't be bluff shoving after small blind has committed his stack, so standard curse your luck fold

 

[FatBasset]

I think you need to fold here. You post doesn't include a read that would put either player on a hand you could beat. Ultra tight player should have at least a 10 and probably a Q. Assuming BB knows SB is ultra tight as well, he must have Q to re-raise all in. BB has you covered so if he does have a Q then you are out. If both SB and BB have Q, then you are out in fifth. You would still have 20 BB so I would fold and try for a better spot to risk it all.

 

[PokerPete]

Ok... I'm reading through this and now I have a question for those who often get to FT in the top three spots....
I tend to play the flop a little differently then how Genso choose to... and maybe I just found a "leak" in my game that needs plugging...

Does anyone else play the flop differently and if so what and why do you do different or the same?

Genso, can you give me your reason behind the play the way you made it?

 

[Genso Hikki]

Genso, can you give me your reason behind the play the way you made it?

Well, it was about a 1/2 pot sized bet. Normally I might bet more, but to be perfectly honest, I was expecting the BB to raise me. As I said earlier, I play with him a lot, and it's totally like him to check raise with a flush draw or even with top pair or even to go off cocked with nothing. I expected him to raise, and then I was gping to shove. Once the SB calls though, that little plan went out the window because there was no way the BB was going to try to semi-bluff or bluff both of us off our hands.

 

[PokerPete]

Well, it was about a 1/2 pot sized bet. Normally I might bet more, but to be perfectly honest, I was expecting the BB to raise me.

ok... I see where you thought you might be going with this...

As I said earlier, I play with him a lot, and it's totally like him to check raise with a flush draw or even with top pair or even to go off cocked with nothing. I expected him to raise, and then I was gping to shove.

See, I'm thinking (and of course this might be the absolutley wrong thing here and be my "leak") I think I really want the rest of this hand to be either over here (I'd be at 148K and the new chip leader), or heads up... meaning that I'll give the SB a chance to either push or fold before we get to the villian... I really, really don't like this flop for my hand. I'm willing to pay ppQ's that flopped a boat and take 5th place $$ with a happy "gg/vnh" if it's the BB that flopped it. If the SB is way ahead here, so be it... if the BB folds then the SB and I exchange positions (SB now at 120K and I'm at 60K). I want ppA's and ppK's or AQ to be hoping and praying for help on the turn or river once they've countered with a push and I call.

BTW: I missed the "What should I do? Also - should I have bet more than half the pot when I flopped three tens?" part of your post the first time.

 

[Genso Hikki]

I don't put either player on pocket queens here because they only called my pre-flop raise. I am fairly certain that the SB would have been all-in pre-flop with Queens, because that's the way he's been playing all night. The BB would have re-raised me as well pre-flop with Queens, if for no other reason than to get me out of the pot and get the SB isolated.

Remember, both players checked the flop before I made my 1/2 pot-sized bet. I'm pretty sure if one of them had snuck in with Queens there would have been action before it got around to me. I was pretty sure I had the best hand after the flop, that I was way ahead, yada., yada, yada.

The truth is (and this is why I asked should I have raised more with the 3 tens) is that I'm pretty sure I "thunk" myself right out of losing this pot by not shoving the flop.

 

[PokerPete]

The truth is (and this is why I asked should I have raised more with the 3 tens) is that I'm pretty sure I "thunk" myself right out of losing this pot by not shoving the flop.

See... this is why I wish Zach or TenBob would jump in... I don't think I "push" either... I think I woulda bet between 40K & 45K... giving SB a chance to "push" and give me a chance to squeeze the BB if he flat calls the SB 46K ... there's no way the SB calls without shoving... if the BB is aggresive, I doubt he flat calls if the SB folds... I think we put him in c-raise or fold position.... and I want him shoving into me here, now while I'm either way, way ahead or way, way behind....cause I'm pretty sure I am ahead here.

 

[Jillychemung]

Based on the description of the SB, I would expect to see AQ most of the time and maybe AdKd. The BB would be floating with a larger range or trying a silly trap with AA/KK but you've ruled that out. On that flop if the SB has a Q or a T or 2 diamonds, they will most likely stack with it, why would they commit a 1/4 of their chips and not stack when it hits them. IMHO A shove by you on the flop has a good chance of getting the SB to call and the BB to go away and that's ideal here. If you shove there is 194K in the pot (if SB calls) and BB has to call 106K. That isn't enough odds to chase and based on your reads you have the nuts on the flop so put maximum pressure on them as their only outs at this point are slim. You are a 60/40 favorite against KdJd and a slight dog to AdTc 45% tie, discounting AA/KK/QQ as per your read. If the SB folds to your shove on the flop the BB is getting even worse odds to call your shove. I think at this point in the game it is much more dangerous to leave a flicker of light out there with your IMHO light flop bet.

 

[vanquish]

fold, also consider betting more than 25k on the flop

 

[Genso Hikki]

I think at this point in the game it is much more dangerous to leave a flicker of light out there with your IMHO light flop bet.

Thanks so much for the thoughtful response. And of course, I think you're 100 percent right.

So I folded.

SB: Shows Ad, Qs
BB: Shows: Kd, 10h

River: 2s

Funny, through all my thinking trying to put the BB on a range of hands, that he could have the case 10 never occurred to me.

 

[PokerPete]

Funny, through all my thinking trying to put the BB on a range of hands, that he could have the case 10 never occurred to me.

I guess I dismissed it because the only higher kicker would be Q

 

[p0K35]

preflop, looks like a steal the blinds move, or not. If you raised in pos with a hand you like. Fair enuff.

flop. u have to like that. except, no more sooted. Of course checked to you.

This is where, I lose you. What the heck is that bet about?

Looks like cbet, but also looks like "call me". A 'teaser', or 'value' bet????

I'll ask, is this a "find out where you at bet"?

2 Flat calls. Guess we found out...

turn:

Should kill all of your action. That card counterfeits you, and is about the worst card for you. You made an "awesome" flop bet, and your hand is now 2nd best. Easy fold.

 

[vanquish]

preflop, looks like a steal the blinds move, or not. If you raised in pos with a hand you like. Fair enuff.

flop. u have to like that. except, no more sooted. Of course checked to you.

This is where, I lose you. What the heck is that bet about?

Looks like cbet, but also looks like "call me". A 'teaser', or 'value' bet????

I'll ask, is this a "find out where you at bet"?

 

[Genso Hikki]

Looks like cbet, but also looks like "call me". A 'teaser', or 'value' bet????

I'll ask, is this a "find out where you at bet"?

Well...

If you'll scroll up and read the rest of the thread, you'll see my reasoning (bad as it was) for that bet.

BTW-I see NO problem making a standard raise against the blinds in A,10 suited... especially when one of those blinds is short stacked.

 

[PokerPete]

If you'll scroll up and read the rest of the thread, you'll see my reasoning (bad as it was) for that bet.

I actually liked your reasoning/thought process.... I just felt the bet could have been a little bit larger...

As I can see from the hand results posted later... we would have gotten pushes from both the SB and BB.... and we would have "insta-called", praying all the while that the BB didn't call with QT... since your reads (correct again) that neither had QQ or better...

End result (not that it should matter in any way, how, shape or form since outcome should never dictate) being SB new stack leader with 180K, BB crippled at 20K and you'd have stayed exactly where you were... 2nd stack at 120K

 

[Jillychemung]

I think this HH is a great illustration of how bet sizing can lead to trouble. With a larger flop bet all your decisions for the turn and river are made for you. With the smaller bet as played you get a headache :banghead: