KK UTG

[5miles]

Let's not mind the outcome, I want you to criticize the way I played this. I think QJ was pretty obvious...


full tilt poker Game #5763365945: $2 + $0.25 Sit & Go (43872972), Table 1 - 20/40 - No Limit Hold'em - 11:37:12 ET - 2008/03/24
Seat 1: aautio (1,470)
Seat 2: fmiles (1,415)
Seat 3: xXThreeLionsXx (3,390)
Seat 5: mbe1010 (1,380)
Seat 6: Marina122 (2,760)
Seat 7: PUNlSHERR (1,400)
Seat 8: Lagumus (360)
Seat 9: BronxStu (1,325)
BronxStu posts the small blind of 20
aautio posts the big blind of 40
The button is in seat #8
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to fmiles [Kd Ks]
fmiles has 15 seconds left to act
fmiles raises to 160
xXThreeLionsXx folds
mbe1010 calls 160
Marina122 folds
PUNlSHERR folds
Lagumus folds
BronxStu folds
aautio folds
*** FLOP *** [7h Jh Qd]
fmiles has 15 seconds left to act
fmiles bets 520
mbe1010 raises to 1,220, and is all in
fmiles has 15 seconds left to act
fmiles calls 700
mbe1010 shows [Qc Jc]
fmiles shows [Kd Ks]
*** TURN *** [7h Jh Qd] <font color='red'>6♥</font>
*** RIVER *** [7h Jh Qd 6h] <font color='black'>K♣</font>
mbe1010 shows two pair, Queens and Jacks
fmiles shows three of a kind, Kings
fmiles wins the pot (2,820) with three of a kind, Kings
mbe1010 stands up
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot 2,820 | Rake 0
Board: [7h Jh Qd 6h Kc]
Seat 1: aautio (big blind) folded before the Flop
Seat 2: fmiles showed [Kd Ks] and won (2,820) with three of a kind, Kings
Seat 3: xXThreeLionsXx didn't bet (folded)
Seat 5: mbe1010 showed [Qc Jc] and lost with two pair, Queens and Jacks
Seat 6: Marina122 didn't bet (folded)
Seat 7: PUNlSHERR didn't bet (folded)
Seat 8: Lagumus (button) didn't bet (folded)
Seat 9: BronxStu (small blind) folded before the Flop

 

[KenFischer]

A lot of it depends on what you think the reraise means. There are plenty of calling hands that can beat KK with this flop - you're in essence saying "I know I'm behind with one pair, but I'm going to gamble to see if get to keep playing". I think it's too early for that when you have an average stack with blinds at 20/40.

Even with your overbet on the flop, you're having to call another 700 to try to win 1600. If you're behind, your odds are probably much worse than the pot odds are offering. Additionally, if you lose, you are essentially out, with 35 chips left. Folding leaves you with plenty of chips since it's still early in the tournament.

With the big bet on the flop you set yourself up for a tough decision. The only hands that you will get to fold are the ones that are losing to you anyhow. If they are ahead, you will get called or raised.

The better play on the flop might be to bet out about 2/3 to 3/4 of the pot (300 chips would be about right). This should protect your hand, get value if you are ahead, provide information if you are behind, and leave you with enough chips to escape without feeling like you have to race to the river.

 

[feitr]

But you are also playing extremely low stakes...ie players WILL shove with KQ/AQ or mb even QT in this situation. So it just comes down to the player. You have to bet the flop on this hand; but i don't see the point in way overbetting the pot like you did. Basically, you forced yourself to call his AI after your flop bet because you were moreorless pot committed (700 chips is no good in a SnG...or anything).

I've seen players ship it with TPTK in 10$/20$ SnGs, when an overpair is certainly possible, so i don't think that AI in a 2$ SnG means an overpair is no good at all in alot of cases. Just comes down to your read of the player. The size of your flop bet made no sense, however...seemed like you were trying to make sure he has absolutely no odds to call if he is on a hand like T9 or a FD. Just bet the pot...draws don't get odds to call on pot size bets in HU, since they will have to call another pot size bet on the turn if they missed.

 

[KenFischer]

(700 chips is no good in a SnG...or anything).

I disagree with this part - 700 chips would be 17.5BB left at this level. Even if they only played 9 hands per blind escalation (which they won't) that leaves enough to cover the blinds for at least 6 more rounds, even if every hand is folded.

This leaves plenty of time to pick up another good hand (or even a good opportunity to steal from position) to rebuild the stack. No need to force the action and gamble yet.

I also think that pot sized raises are overused in thin stack tournaments - you can usually accomplish the same thing for slightly less (and hopefully also stay out of trouble by doing so). The opponent who convinces themselves to call a 2/3 or 3/4 pot bet is likely to call the pot-sized bet also. There is very little fold equity gained with the bigger bet.

Pot-sized bets do seem to make sense in deep-stack tournaments (because you can get away from it without being crippled), pot-limit structures (because betting the pot is the accepted norm), and rebuy tournaments and cash games (because you can reload).

 

[feitr]

Um i was making the point that betting 520 into a pot of 380 (which is what he did) was completely excessive and that a pot sized bet would have been more than enough. As a general rule, i would personally bet like 250-350 into that pot with TPTK or w/e, but there isn't anything wrong with betting the pot with an overpair, because in 95% of the cases you are way ahead and should make them pay to see the turn, ESPECIALLY if there is a flush/straight draw out there. And i disagree with the 700 chip part....if you are holding an overpair, and have bet so much into a pot that you are left with 700 chips and you either hold them or put them into a pot at 4:1, you have no choice but to call the bet. But that comes down to the terrible flop bet.

Holding on to 700 chips when you have an overpair to the board, in the hopes of somehow finding yoruself in a better situation is a very bad decision imo. Hoever, with a better flop bet, he could have potentially got away from the hand (tho i wouldn't lay this down except vs a total nit and at much higher stakes).

 

[viking999]

I call this all day. I put the opponent on a much wider range here. Any Q, any J, or any 8+ out draw. Hands that beat us? QJ, 77, or AA. Not a hell of a lot. Going up against the draws is risky, but I think we have enough +EV here against made hands and weaker draws that it doesn't make sense to wait for a surer thing.

I would bet less on the flop, maybe 280 to get paid off by lesser hands that might fold, but I think I'd still call the all-in. This is low low low stakes. KK is a big hand here against an all-in.

 

[KenFischer]

Um i was making the point that betting 520 into a pot of 380 (which is what he did) was completely excessive and that a pot sized bet would have been more than enough. As a general rule, i would personally bet like 250-350 into that pot with TPTK or w/e

I'm not disagreeing with you - see my first post

but there isn't anything wrong with betting the pot with an overpair, because in 95% of the cases you are way ahead and should make them pay to see the turn, ESPECIALLY if there is a flush/straight draw out there.

Again, I agree, *if* by betting the pot you can still get away from the hand. If, by making a pot-sized bet here, you believe you can't fold to a reraise, the correct play is to push.

And i disagree with the 700 chip part....if you are holding an overpair, and have bet so much into a pot that you are left with 700 chips and you either hold them or put them into a pot at 4:1, you have no choice but to call the bet. But that comes down to the terrible flop bet.

We'll have to agree to disagree here

I have plenty of confidence in my short-stack play and know that my chances on a coin flip are less than my chances if I fold. Not everyone can say that, and that's ok.

Holding on to 700 chips when you have an overpair to the board, in the hopes of somehow finding yoruself in a better situation is a very bad decision imo. Hoever, with a better flop bet, he could have potentially got away from the hand (tho i wouldn't lay this down except vs a total nit and at much higher stakes).

Again, I believe that we're on the same page. Reviewing the intended/likely consequences of a bet *before* the chips go into the middle is part of the advanced thinking we should all be working to develop.

 

[feitr]

Well about a pot sized bet would give him over 900 chips, which is more than 700 at least. But i never tried to say anything about what size his bet should be, other than the fact that it shouldn't have been 1 1/3 times the pot.

My only point is this...you have 700 chips left and you have an overpair to the board. There are very few situations that are going to come up in the near future with that +EV. I highly doubt i would get away from this hand, nor do i think anybody should want to unless you have a very good read on the player.

I agree that if you know you are beat sure lay it down coz you can come back from 700 chips. Yesterday, i didn't realise that i had started two SnGs just as we were about to eat Easter dinner. One i was lucky and had almost 8k chips (so over half the chips) while the blinds were still 60, so that was an easy sitout np. The other, i had started a little later and was at 1350 chips or something. So i sat out, came back 20 mins later, was just going onto the BB with 750 chips left (including the 200 blind). So obviously i basically had to shove with anything, which ofc was 72o. I got lucky and doubled up and went on to win quite easily in the end. So sure, playing a short stack beats being eliminated.

But i still don't think you should lay that hand down unless you have a VERY good read on the other player. You'll get shoved by 9Ts/KQ etc by your average low stakes SnG player enough times to make it worth your while.

 

[KenFischer]

But i still don't think you should lay that hand down unless you have a VERY good read on the other player. You'll get shoved by 9Ts/KQ etc by your average low stakes SnG player enough times to make it worth your while.

Interesting theory, but I can't wrap my mind around how this could ever be profitable over time in a freezout tournament. Do you have any numbers that back this up?

 

[Steveg1976]

But i still don't think you should lay that hand down unless you have a VERY good read on the other player. You'll get shoved by 9Ts/KQ etc by your average low stakes SnG player enough times to make it worth your while.

^^ I agree, especially at the low stakes it seems people love to shove their draws all-in

 

[feitr]

Ken, all i'm tryign to say is that imo at those stakes, unless your read tells you otherwise, i would put quite a wide range for a shove on that board.

Hero is only beaten by 77 and JQ, presuming you will see a 3-bet preflop with JJ/QQ/AA. I suspect shoving range would be something like QT+ 9sTs (for sure), and i wouldn't be suprised to see a shove with 9To and any 2 spades.

After the preflop bet the villain has 2 options...fold or shove. So i think any hand that the villain doesn't want to let go of (probably TP with an ok kicker) he will shove.

If your read tells you otherwise...ie this guy is actaully a decent player, then sure folding might be an option, but against your average low/medium stake SnG player i think there is a wide shoving range here.

At higher stakes (20$+) then ofc matters are different because the players tend to be alot tighter...

 

[KenFischer]

Ok, I can see where you are coming from - thanks for the clarification.

From my experience, while true that in small-stakes SNGs the play is looser, it also means that they will call you with a wider range of hands pre-flop. This type of play is very dangerous to someone who only has a pair (and only two outs to improve it).

I stick by my recommendation - don't play for a big pot with a small hand. An overpair to the board is a small hand in this case, though I completely agree that it's hard to see it like that when it's your overpair.

 

[iluvdahate]

really bad spot but hey he could have had AQ and made the same reraise all in so if he has the two pair that sucks. Unless you have played with him enough and have a good read on him could i fold that hand.