KJo facing PF reraise: Call or Fold?

P

ph_il

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full tilt poker Game #3052624449: The Ferguson (22760099) Table 98 - 100/200 - No Limit Hold'em - 2:59:01 ET - 2007/07/25
Seat 2: scoobiedr (20 041)
Seat 3: xxPiexx (11 390)
Seat 4: Philthy (3 300)
Seat 5: Mr Hi Rollller (2 390)
Seat 6: westgoldminer (3 035)
Seat 7: Goat_Toucher (245) is sitting out
Seat 8: Stl_Ace (4 790)
Seat 9: albydamd (9 179)
Mr Hi Rollller posts the small blind of 100
westgoldminer posts the big blind of 200
The button is in seat #4

Holecards:
Dealt to Philthy[ Kc Js ]
Goat_Toucher folds
Stl_Ace folds
albydamd has 15 seconds left to act
albydamd folds
scoobiedr raises to 400
[Had been min. raising a lot of PF.]
xxPiexx folds
Philthy has 15 seconds left to act
Tron420 sits down
Tron420 adds 17 638
Philthy raises to 1 200
[Raised to to test OR. Hoping to isolate. I also had position.]
Mr Hi Rollller folds
westgoldminer raises to 3 035 and is all in
scoobiedr folds
Philthy has 15 seconds left to act

So, other than "You should fold this hand PF." Do you call or fold?
 
Emperor IX

Emperor IX

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I fold, because I would've folded when it got to me in the first place ;). Even if I did decide to raise to try it out, I'd fold to the re raise.
 
robwhufc

robwhufc

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Your plan didn't work though there's nothing wrong with your thought process. You cant be ahead of any of his likely holdings, but i'd probably call and take a long-shot chance of doubling up. This game's got away from you, you are going to struggle to win it with 2K chips, when you've got 20K, 11K + 17K on your table.
 
shinedown.45

shinedown.45

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fold this right now, west has A-x,there is just too much beating you here. you could possibly write-off one of your cards here as alby may have took some time to consider playing his/her hand and decided against it, maybe alby was holding K-10, Q-J, J-10, all posibilities being os.

Based on this info, I would fold.
 
pezjb

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I would fold. But, I also would of just smooth called his raise.
 
vanquish

vanquish

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Pretty much committed to a call here - folding leaves you in danger zone with only 10x BB.
 
P

ph_il

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So, I guess fold would've been the correct play. I decided to call for the following reasons.

-If I had folded, I would've been among the lowest chip stacks. I could either wait it out for a better hand or take my chance here.

-I was postivie I was beat. At best all I could hope for was a race situation.

-I was getting too good of a price, almost 2.5 : 1. Especially if it was a race situation.


It wasnt and I got lucky.

Philthy has requested TIME
Philthy calls 1 835
westgoldminer shows [ As Qc ]
Philthy shows [ Kc Js ]

Flop :
[ 5s 9c 7s]

Turn:
[5s 9c 7s] [Jh ]

River:
[ 5s 9c 7s Jh ] [2d ]
westgoldminer shows Ace Queen high
Philthy shows a pair of Jacks
Philthy wins the pot (6 570) with a pair of Jacks
westgoldminer stands up

SUMMARY:
Total pot 6 570 | Rake 0
Board:
[ 5s 9c 7s Jh 2d ]

Seat 2: scoobiedr folded before the Flop
Seat 3: xxPiexx didn't bet (folded)
Seat 4: Philthy (button) showed [Kc Js ] and won (6 570) with a pair of Jacks
Seat 5: Mr Hi Rollller (small blind) folded before the Flop
Seat 6: westgoldminer (big blind) showed [As Qc] and lost with Ace Queen high
Seat 7: Goat_Toucher didn't bet (folded)
Seat 8: Stl_Ace didn't bet (folded)
Seat 9: albydamd didn't bet (folded)
 
Stick66

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Full Tilt Poker Game #3052624449: The Ferguson (22760099) Table 98 - 100/200 - No Limit Hold'em - 2:59:01 ET - 2007/07/25
Seat 2: scoobiedr (20 041)
Seat 3: xxPiexx (11 390)
Seat 4: Philthy (3 300)
Seat 5: Mr Hi Rollller (2 390)
Seat 6: westgoldminer (3 035)
Seat 7: Goat_Toucher (245) is sitting out
Seat 8: Stl_Ace (4 790)
Seat 9: albydamd (9 179)
Mr Hi Rollller posts the small blind of 100
westgoldminer posts the big blind of 200
The button is in seat #4

Holecards:
Dealt to Philthy[ Kc Js ]
Goat_Toucher folds
Stl_Ace folds
albydamd has 15 seconds left to act
albydamd folds
scoobiedr raises to 400
[Had been min. raising a lot of PF.]
xxPiexx folds
Philthy has 15 seconds left to act
Tron420 sits down
Tron420 adds 17 638
Philthy raises to 1 200
[Raised to to test OR. Hoping to isolate. I also had position.]
Mr Hi Rollller folds
westgoldminer raises to 3 035 and is all in
scoobiedr folds
Philthy has 15 seconds left to act

So, other than "You should fold this hand PF." Do you call or fold?
Yes, fold to the re-re-raise. KJo is easily dominated.

That font hurts my eyes! :stoned:
 
Afterlife000

Afterlife000

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Yeah you shouldve folded, you could have easily been dominated or beat.
 
J

joeeagles

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Your plan didn't work though there's nothing wrong with your thought process. You cant be ahead of any of his likely holdings, but i'd probably call and take a long-shot chance of doubling up. This game's got away from you, you are going to struggle to win it with 2K chips, when you've got 20K, 11K + 17K on your table.


Not to be results oriented, but I agree with this. Folding won't resolve much at this stage.

The problem with making moves like the one you tried here is that you need to think ahead. I like the button reraise against a LP minraiser but your stack doesn't really allow you to do it. As played at this point I think its much better to hope you get lucky rather than folding and being left with 2k against many big stacks. Its true that your hand can easily be dominated but if you're going to worry about that then don't reraise PF to begin with, but once you do it there is no coming back from this with the stack you have left compared to your opponents stacks.

But I really really like the PF reraise here, its a very nice play even with ATC. Although I admit that in this scenario its questionable because you're shortstacked, I disagree to folding this PF all the time against a LP raiser. Resteals are a huge help in allowing you to survive tourneys and make it deep. People get scared when they get reraised PF, and 100% of the time if OR reraises or shoves back it means its a monster and you can let it go. It looks like a dangerous play but its much safer than most people think. Even if OR calls, which is something that poor players tend to do, 2 times out of 3 you'll take the pot down when you c-bet the flop. What happened here, getting shoved back from the BB, is pretty rare especially considering he has AQo. He wouldn't be doing this OOP if he had 15k behind and even with 3k he should fold in a pot that has been raised and reraised. But sometimes go figure.
 
D

DrJ

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You absolutely have to call at this point. Not sure I like the reraise with that holding - but it's not all too relevant in considering this call. Pot odds are pretty much dictating a call here. There's 4500 in the pot now, and you have to call 1800. You're getting 2.5 to 1 with KJ, and the only hands he could have that don't give you the odds to make this call are AA and KK. Even if you've seen him play a really tight game to this point, he certainly has a much larger range than that for this move. You already have a K, so that limits the chances on that one. And if he had AA, and that stack, would he really want to be chasing people out? Maybe, but he's more likely to want to reduce the field with a lower PP or two bigs.
 
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stormswa

stormswa

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You absolutely have to call at this point. Not sure I like the reraise with that holding - but it's not all too relevant in considering this call. Pot odds are pretty much dictating a call here. There's 4500 in the pot now, and you have to call 1800. You're getting 2.5 to 1 with KJ, and the only hands he could have that don't give you the odds to make this call are AA and KK. Even if you've seen him play a really tight game to this point, he certainly has a much larger range than that for this move. You already have a K, so that limits the chances on that one. And if he had AA, and that stack, would he really want to be chasing people out? Maybe, but he's more likely to want to reduce the field with a lower PP or two bigs.


let me try to see here, the only hands not giving us 2-1 are AA and KK? you sure about that?

QQ we are 70/30 dog, same with QK.
JJ we drop to 67/30.
I have not even run hands like AK or AJ.

At best we are a coin flip, AT BEST.

I have not actully looked at the hand but usually calling with KJ is never good, shoving is different.
 
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ChuckTs

ChuckTs

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Our reraising range is pretty big, and the shover has to know this (you're reraising a persistent minraiser).

Even with this (tightish) range

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 70.679% 70.32% 00.36% 62615822 316943.00 { TT+, AQs+, AQo+ }
Hand 1: 29.321% 28.96% 00.36% 25790100 316943.00 { KdJh }

We've got to call. Basically we got ourselves into a sticky mess by reraising a marginal hand - which I won't argue with vs a LAG. I'd probably actually reraise more to make sure I don't get pushed off my hand - I don't want to be left with ~10BBs and a tarnished image to boot. Nor do I want to be faced with a tough flop decision if LAG decides to tag along and see a flop since we didn't raise enough.
 
D

DrJ

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let me try to see here, the only hands not giving us 2-1 are AA and KK? you sure about that?

QQ we are 70/30 dog, same with QK.
JJ we drop to 67/30.
I have not even run hands like AK or AJ.

At best we are a coin flip, AT BEST.

I have not actully looked at the hand but usually calling with KJ is never good, shoving is different.

It's not 2-1, it's 2.5 to 1. Actually, it's 2.6 to 1 because there's 4700 against his 1800.

Anything better than 28/72 and he has odds to call. So yes, he has odds on the JJ, he has odds on QQ, and he has odds on AK, AQ, AJ, and KQ here. And I'm guessing that with other guy's stack he's going to do this with stuff like 88-TT as well. There's 18 ways to make those hands here, and only 9 ways to make KK and AA since you have a K.

Yes, he will lose more often than he will win. But not enough to make the call incorrect. pot odds and stack sizes dictate a call here.
 
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