JTh in multiway pot

[ChuckTs]

Table is very limpey, I've been very TAG.

pokerstars Game #10125199598: Tournament #51321066, $4.00+$0.40 Hold'em No Limit - Level VI (100/200) - 2007/05/27 - 03:28:52 (ET)
Table '51321066 6' 9-max Seat #4 is the button
Seat 1: bandit030269 (13620 in chips)
Seat 2: JohnnyGL (5913 in chips)
Seat 3: kiddbrown (4072 in chips)
Seat 4: kmartktn3 (4057 in chips)
Seat 5: pba4788 (20774 in chips) out of hand (moved from another table into small blind)
Seat 6: poconomark (3220 in chips)
Seat 7: ChuckTs (2293 in chips)
Seat 8: JAG5487 (1528 in chips)
Seat 9: Byyan (14407 in chips)
poconomark: posts small blind 100
ChuckTs: posts big blind 200
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to ChuckTs [Jh Th]
JAG5487: calls 200
Byyan: calls 200
bandit030269: folds
JohnnyGL: folds
kiddbrown: calls 200
kmartktn3: calls 200
poconomark: calls 100
ChuckTs: raises 2093 to 2293 and is all-in

Likey? No likey?

 

[stormswa]

yep

tons of dead money in the pot! tons!

I like this one. even if you get called it is very unlikely you are dominated.

 

[Irexes]

I wouldn't make it a huge amount of the time and I probably check here as TJs is lovely in multiway pots.

Dead money aplenty though and it's a nice imaginative play with a solid rationale so can't argue with it. If you stack's a bit bigger (3000+) I think it becomes harder to justify as you are no in imminent pressure.

 

[loopmeister]

It looks like a great move. If I'm CO/Button/SB, I'm thinking cheap flop, and the *last* thing I want is someone after me to put in a big raise. Following the fundamental theorem of poker, if you do what your opponents don't want you to do, it must be the right move. To simplify things I'll assume the LP players and SB fold.

In theory UTG is ahead of your range, so if you get a caller it's probably him.

If he has a 'limpey' range of 99+, AJ+. 9T+, and let's say his calling range is TT+, KA then:
he is folding almost 2/3 of the time here, giving you an +EV of t900.
for the 1/3 of the time he calls, you win 30% of the time on average for an EV of (0.3*2993)+(0.7*-2293)= -t707
Overall, the push has an EV of (0.66*900)+(0.33*-707) = +t353.

So the move has a positive EV. To determine whether it's a +$EV move (using ICM) you'd need the total no. of chips in play and the payout structure.

 

[blankoblanco]

Looks awesome so long as you've seen UTG limper do so with marginal holdings enough that there's no reasonable fear of the ol' limp-a-monster. I imagine you're not particularly afraid of him, so I think it's great. A++

 

[ChuckTs]

In theory UTG is ahead of your range, so if you get a caller it's probably him.

If he has a 'limpey' range of 99+, AJ+. 9T+, and let's say his calling range is TT+, KA ...

I'm still not sure if I like this or not; the $4.40s are filled with people who are happy to get their stack in with AJo or 99, so maybe it wasn't such a smart idea. His limping range was probably much bigger than the above, though, and I expected him to fold most of the crap he was trying to see a flop with.

Add in my lucksackness, though, and it's definitely +EV:

POKERSTARS GAME #10125199598: TOURNAMENT #51321066, $4.00+$0.40 HOLD'EM NO LIMIT - LEVEL VI (100/200) - 2007/05/27 - 03:28:52 (ET)
Table '51321066 6' 9-max Seat #4 is the button
Seat 1: bandit030269 (13620 in chips)
Seat 2: JohnnyGL (5913 in chips)
Seat 3: kiddbrown (4072 in chips)
Seat 4: kmartktn3 (4057 in chips)
Seat 5: pba4788 (20774 in chips) out of hand (moved from another table into small blind)
Seat 6: poconomark (3220 in chips)
Seat 7: ChuckTs (2293 in chips)
Seat 8: JAG5487 (1528 in chips)
Seat 9: Byyan (14407 in chips)
poconomark: posts small blind 100
ChuckTs: posts big blind 200
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to ChuckTs [Jh Th]
JAG5487: calls 200
Byyan: calls 200
bandit030269: folds
JohnnyGL: folds
kiddbrown: calls 200
kmartktn3: calls 200
poconomark: calls 100
ChuckTs: raises 2093 to 2293 and is all-in
JAG5487: calls 1328 and is all-in uh oh
Byyan: folds
kiddbrown: folds
kmartktn3: calls 2093 ahh shit
poconomark: folds
*** FLOP *** [6c 2c 4s] crap
*** TURN *** [6c 2c 4s] [5s] shit
*** RIVER *** [6c 2c 4s 5s] [Jc] weeeeeeeeeeeee
*** SHOW DOWN ***
ChuckTs: shows [Jh Th] (a pair of Jacks)
kmartktn3: shows [Qs Ts] (high card Queen)
ChuckTs collected 1530 from side pot
JAG5487: shows [Ks Qh] (high card King)
ChuckTs collected 5184 from main pot
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot 6714 Main pot 5184. Side pot 1530. | Rake 0
Board [6c 2c 4s 5s Jc]
Seat 1: bandit030269 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 2: JohnnyGL folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 3: kiddbrown folded before Flop
Seat 4: kmartktn3 (button) showed [Qs Ts] and lost with high card Queen
Seat 6: poconomark (small blind) folded before Flop
Seat 7: ChuckTs (big blind) showed [Jh Th] and won (6714) with a pair of Jacks
Seat 8: JAG5487 showed [Ks Qh] and lost with high card King
Seat 9: Byyan folded before Flop

 

[stormswa]

I'm still not sure if I like this or not; the $4.40s are filled with people who are happy to get their stack in with AJo or 99, so maybe it wasn't such a smart idea. His limping range was probably much bigger than the above, though, and I expected him to fold most of the crap he was trying to see a flop with.

Add in my lucksackness, though, and it's definitely +EV:

POKERSTARS GAME #10125199598: TOURNAMENT #51321066, $4.00+$0.40 HOLD'EM NO LIMIT - LEVEL VI (100/200) - 2007/05/27 - 03:28:52 (ET)
Table '51321066 6' 9-max Seat #4 is the button
Seat 1: bandit030269 (13620 in chips)
Seat 2: JohnnyGL (5913 in chips)
Seat 3: kiddbrown (4072 in chips)
Seat 4: kmartktn3 (4057 in chips)
Seat 5: pba4788 (20774 in chips) out of hand (moved from another table into small blind)
Seat 6: poconomark (3220 in chips)
Seat 7: ChuckTs (2293 in chips)
Seat 8: JAG5487 (1528 in chips)
Seat 9: Byyan (14407 in chips)
poconomark: posts small blind 100
ChuckTs: posts big blind 200
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to ChuckTs [Jh Th]
JAG5487: calls 200
Byyan: calls 200
bandit030269: folds
JohnnyGL: folds
kiddbrown: calls 200
kmartktn3: calls 200
poconomark: calls 100
ChuckTs: raises 2093 to 2293 and is all-in
JAG5487: calls 1328 and is all-in uh oh
Byyan: folds
kiddbrown: folds
kmartktn3: calls 2093 ahh shit
poconomark: folds
*** FLOP *** [6c 2c 4s] crap
*** TURN *** [6c 2c 4s] 5♠ shit
*** RIVER *** [6c 2c 4s 5s] J♣ weeeeeeeeeeeee
*** SHOW DOWN ***
ChuckTs: shows [Jh Th] (a pair of Jacks)
kmartktn3: shows [Qs Ts] (high card Queen)
ChuckTs collected 1530 from side pot
JAG5487: shows [Ks Qh] (high card King)
ChuckTs collected 5184 from main pot
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot 6714 Main pot 5184. Side pot 1530. | Rake 0
Board [6c 2c 4s 5s Jc]
Seat 1: bandit030269 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 2: JohnnyGL folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 3: kiddbrown folded before Flop
Seat 4: kmartktn3 (button) showed [Qs Ts] and lost with high card Queen
Seat 6: poconomark (small blind) folded before Flop
Seat 7: ChuckTs (big blind) showed [Jh Th] and won (6714) with a pair of Jacks
Seat 8: JAG5487 showed [Ks Qh] and lost with high card King
Seat 9: Byyan folded before Flop

those were all HORRIBLE calls, you just dont limp then call a shove with KQ and QT its just not profitable to do that. Dude calls half his stack on QT and other guy puts tourney life with QK....man I might deposit on stars next week seems real real bad play.

dont second guess yourself Chuck like someone said it is a +ev move and one I would make along with you. If they players had and concept for 1 they would never limp with those hands, they would either open or fold, and two they would never call a shove from the big blind because shoving from big blind is a very stregthy(not sure if that right word) move.


LOL just noticed Jag limps with 7 big blinds, he should of either folded or open shoved that. He was UTG that is such a shove or fold hand.

 

[skoldpadda]

Not the way I'd play it, but it worked for you. The play certainly has its merits.

 

[ChuckTs]

KQ is a legit call (though his play before that was def questionable) considering his stack size and the odds he's getting. QTs is just funny

 

[stormswa]

no

KQ is a legit call (though his play before that was def questionable) considering his stack size and the odds he's getting. QTs is just funny

the thing is it shouldnt of even got to that point with QK, that is a open shove UTG or a fold bottom line. You just can not limp with QK UTG with 7BB, it just cant happen. KQ open shove is the only way to play it, you just cant limp in the intention of calling any bet. I mean if its limped around and you miss flop you just wasted a big blind or you have to make the overcall with overs. So you actully wasted 2 bing blinds because your in blind next, so basicly you just wasted 1/3 of your whole stack just by limping with QK......horrible.

you open shove and QT calls you and you fold chuck and he doubles up!!!! Maybe im being mean but I think they both deserve to lose the hand the only play I like is yours.

 

[bw07507]

I definately like your thinking their Chuck, but it would have worked much better if the tournament was a higher buy in. I used to try this occasionally in these low limit tournaments, then learned my lesson when I got calls like that. I find that some players cant stand to give up hands that they already have money invested in, even if it is only a very small invested.

 

[joeeagles]

I missed this hand somehow. Not sure I like the shove actually, limpers stacks are important and you can expect a call from the UTG limper a fair amount of time because of pot odds he's getting (if you're thinking ahead), and once he has limped there is no sense in speculating if he should have or not, he's in the pot anymore and getting great odds to call the shove; you know he doesn't have a monster but if he's any decent virtually all his possible range, with few exceptions, is worth the 2 to 1 he's getting.

Another reason not to shove is that JTs is the best possible multiway pot starting hand other than small pairs (not sure, but it might even be better than a small pair).

That said, I don't think its terrible.

 

[ChuckTs]

the thing is it shouldnt of even got to that point with QK, that is a open shove UTG or a fold bottom line. You just can not limp with QK UTG with 7BB, it just cant happen. KQ open shove is the only way to play it, you just cant limp in the intention of calling any bet. I mean if its limped around and you miss flop you just wasted a big blind or you have to make the overcall with overs. So you actully wasted 2 bing blinds because your in blind next, so basicly you just wasted 1/3 of your whole stack just by limping with QK......horrible.

Don't get me wrong, I completely agree that KQ played it horribly up to that point. Just saying after he's already limped and is now getting like 2:1 on a call, I think he has to call there.

I definately like your thinking their Chuck, but it would have worked much better if the tournament was a higher buy in. I used to try this occasionally in these low limit tournaments, then learned my lesson when I got calls like that. I find that some players cant stand to give up hands that they already have money invested in, even if it is only a very small invested.

Yeah, I think you're right bw. Like I said, I'm still not sure that this is such a good move at these stakes since people are so willing to get their stack in with such a wide range of hands.