J4h in the small blind

ChuckTs

ChuckTs

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From a $5 9-seater: You're in the SB, and several people limp in. I'm getting very good odds on a very crappy hand, and decide to limp, hoping for a big flop. My problem with this flop (which brought me trips) was that I had a crappy kicker, and anyone out there holding a jack will definitely not let go, and will probably have me beat. Not only that, but I'm out of position, and have no idea what others will be holding.

What do you do in this situation?

pokerstars Game #5771738753: Tournament #29214159, $5.00+$0.50 Hold'em No Limit - Level III (25/50) - 2006/08/02 - 14:28:15 (ET)
Table '29214159 1' 9-max Seat #7 is the button
Seat 1: RoyalNavy (1780 in chips)
Seat 2: MURSLEV (1550 in chips)
Seat 3: majk5 (1990 in chips)
Seat 4: snakefrank (685 in chips)
Seat 5: BobbyCop (1040 in chips)
Seat 6: goldz87 (1060 in chips)
Seat 7: Dean46 (1275 in chips)
Seat 8: ChuckTs (1345 in chips)
Seat 9: Sean569 (2775 in chips)
ChuckTs: posts small blind 25
Sean569: posts big blind 50
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to ChuckTs [4h Jh]
RoyalNavy: calls 50
MURSLEV: calls 50
majk5: folds
snakefrank: calls 50
BobbyCop: calls 50
goldz87: folds
Dean46: folds
ChuckTs: calls 25
Sean569: checks
*** FLOP *** [7h Jd Js]
ChuckTs:.....
 
Tammy

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I would probably put out a feeler bet to see where I stand. Be cautious of anyone who calls, as they may hold the 4th Jack and could be trying to trap. With the two J's on the board, you are probably well ahead here.
 
t1riel

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Bet the pot and see what happens. Chances are only one player will call you since there are no flush or straight draws. Everyone might fold as well and you win the pot.
 
Effexor

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I lead out with a bet of 200 to 300 and go from there. I wouldn't worry too much about the kicker, you're probably well ahead already and if you are up against KJ, thats just bad luck. I don't see laying this hand down even to a big reraise.
 
ChuckTs

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Effexor said:
I lead out with a bet of 200 to 300 and go from there. I wouldn't worry too much about the kicker, you're probably well ahead already and if you are up against KJ, thats just bad luck. I don't see laying this hand down even to a big reraise.

Why not? You don't see someone else limping in with a hand that contains a Jack (JT,JQ,J9,JK,JA) with 5 other people in the pot?
 
whyareunvs

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I'd say that everyone played weak preflop. If you get a caller it's more likely they were slow-playing their Q's, K's, or A's. I'd put out a 3/4 pot-sized bet; if I get a re-raise then I have to think about the player that made the bet. If they can't let go of good but second-best hands; then you punish them. If it's someone who plays solid then you're probably done with the hand.
 
ChuckTs

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I'd say that everyone played weak preflop. If you get a caller it's more likely they were slow-playing their Q's, K's, or A's.
This is why I expect drawing hands (many of which contain jacks) and possibly 33 to be out there. I don't see how this makes it more probable that there's a big pocket pair out there.

I like leading out because I can get better info that way - say I checked and then someone with A7 or 88 led out - how am I supposed to act then?
Anyways, I led out for 1/2 the pot (enough for me to get away from it, but big enough to sweeten the pot if I have the best hand).
Thanks for the input, guys and here are the results:

*** FLOP *** [7h Jd Js]
ChuckTs: bets 150
Sean569: folds
RoyalNavy: calls 150 - dingdingding...alarm bells...though a 7 is still possible
MURSLEV: folds
snakefrank: folds
BobbyCop: folds
*** TURN *** [7h Jd Js] A♦
ChuckTs: checks - playing it safe
RoyalNavy: checks
*** RIVER *** [7h Jd Js Ad] 2♠
ChuckTs: checks
RoyalNavy: bets 150
ChuckTs: calls 150 - staying on the safe side; i was pretty sure I was beat - if he was bluffing, he'd have bet alot more.
*** SHOW DOWN ***
RoyalNavy: shows [Ah Jc] (a full house, Jacks full of Aces)
ChuckTs: mucks hand
RoyalNavy collected 900 from pot
Sean569 said, "nh"
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot 900 | Rake 0
Board [7h Jd Js Ad 2s]
Seat 1: RoyalNavy showed [Ah Jc] and won (900) with a full house, Jacks full of Aces
Seat 2: MURSLEV folded on the Flop
Seat 3: majk5 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 4: snakefrank folded on the Flop
Seat 5: BobbyCop folded on the Flop
Seat 6: goldz87 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 7: Dean46 (button) folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 8: ChuckTs (small blind) mucked [4h Jh]
Seat 9: Sean569 (big blind) folded on the Flop
 
Effexor

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I think you played the hand out in a very smart fashion. I'd have proceeded the same way.

I guess my main arguement is this: What sort of flop were you hoping for with a J4 that *wouldn't* warrent playing cautiously as you ended up playing. Flush? Then you'd still be faced with someone having a bigger flush maybe. Plus if he had reraised you like 300, would you have folded? I'm not sure that I would. How much risk are you willing to take with a weak kicker such as you had?
 
ChuckTs

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I think you played the hand out in a very smart fashion.
Thank you kindly :)

I guess my main arguement is this: What sort of flop were you hoping for with a J4 that *wouldn't* warrent playing cautiously as you ended up playing. Flush? Then you'd still be faced with someone having a bigger flush maybe.
Good point. The thing is, I was getting a massive 15:1 on my money (which is good enough to call with literally anything) with a pretty passive player on the BB, so I was sure to get a very cheap flop.
What I'm hoping for is something like a made flush, hidden 2 pair on a safe flop (say 9J4), or a monster (say JJ4...highly unlikely of course). Of course trips are great, but my kicker troubles make it a tough-to-play situation. I don't know how to calculate it, but I'm pretty sure it's less likely that someone will hold a bigger flush rather than hold the fourth jack (which will 99% have a better kicker) - in a position with a flopped flush, I would have raised the hell out of it. Another thing is, with a pot this big, if I flop just a flush draw then I'm usually getting good odds to chase it, and can rake in a big pot if I hit.

Plus if he had reraised you like 300, would you have folded? I'm not sure that I would. How much risk are you willing to take with a weak kicker such as you had?
Not sure what I would have done - I had very few reads, but generally when people hit a big hand like trips, they slowplay (especially at the $5 level). Had he been in a later position and raised me, I might call or raise thinking he's trying to steal the pot with something like 88 or X-7 because my bet was fairly weak. Raising trips is a great way to get them paid off, because first off, people usually don't believe you - this guy played it like a textbook $5 player, and I was pretty sure he was slowplaying which was why I played it so cautiously.
 
Kenzie 96

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I agree that you played the hand smartly. My question is what was the point in even being involved in the hand with those cards?
 
ChuckTs

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They were soooooooted!

Considering odds, I didn't mind my preflop call, but obviously there are a ton of other hands I'd prefer to have in this situation (suited connectors, small/medium pairs, etc).
This table was very passive preflop, and slightly aggressive post-flop, so I was looking for a cheap limp whenever I could. J4 is obviously not the best multiway hand, but the situation called for...um...a call :/

I won't argue with folding PF though.
 
Effexor

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I did the math, and there is only a 21% chance that someone else in the hand has a Jack. Basically the same odds of having an over pair cracked by an under pair, 80/20. So playing this after the flop would be close to playing AA post flop.
 
ChuckTs

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Effexor said:
I did the math, and there is only a 21% chance that someone else in the hand has a Jack. Basically the same odds of having an over pair cracked by an under pair, 80/20. So playing this after the flop would be close to playing AA post flop.
Not sure I understand what you're getting at with the pocket pair reference Effexor :confused:
 
Effexor

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Just to compare the odds is all. Lets say you were HU with AA vs KK, you are roughly an 80% favorite to win the hand. In this situation, you were also roughly a 80% favorite once you hit those trips, as there was only about a 21% chance that one of the 5 people also had a Jack. That said, you still have to test the waters as you did with the betting and see where you stand. Like in my example if you had AA, and the board had KQJ and you were faced with a big bet or reraise, you'd play the hand cautiously as well.

I guess my ultimate point is that I get the sense that you are overly concerned about the kicker, maybe I'm mistaken but that's the feeling I get. I just wanted to point out the odds that you were likely ahead after the flop regardless of the kicker.
 
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