I think I do this too often. Advice on the way I played this hand

[Ronaldadio]

Is appreciated.

I have made a concious decision I do not just want to scrape the money - I wanna place high.

This hand is a one where after the event I wish I had not played it. What do you guys think?

Also, to let you know, 4 hands earlier I had lost about 1/2 my stack when my KK was beaten by smaller stack going all in with A7. That is why I have a relativley short stack.

One last thing, the tourny paid about $100 to 10th up to about $1200 for first place. It paid down to 20th - that was I think $45 or so.

Out of 167 there were 42 left. Here we go...

** Game ID 642222240 starting - 2006-12-14 20:46:38
** $2,000 GTD $10 High Stack NLHE Freezeout[1118813]:Table 14 [Multi Table Hold 'em] (800.00|1600.00 No Limit - MTT) real money
- Gumball3000 sitting in seat 1 with $30001.93
- Mattt sitting in seat 2 with $9836.26
- fct sitting in seat 4 with $16621.75
- Shjoker sitting in seat 5 with $28939.69 [Dealer]
- ronaldadio sitting in seat 6 with $8030.00
- VADHARA sitting in seat 7 with $11717.68
- pivi1000 sitting in seat 8 with $35771.57
- eddy147 sitting in seat 9 with $10777.68
- the_hoops_3 sitting in seat 10 with $10062.32
ronaldadio posted the small blind - $400.00
VADHARA posted the big blind - $800.00
** Dealing card to ronaldadio: 5 of Spades, Jack of Clubs
pivi1000 called - $800.00
eddy147 folded
the_hoops_3 folded
Gumball3000 folded
Mattt folded
fct folded
Shjoker called - $800.00
ronaldadio called - $800.00
VADHARA checked
** Dealing the flop: 7 of Hearts, 7 of Spades, 5 of Diamonds
ronaldadio checked
VADHARA bet - $800.00
pivi1000 folded
Shjoker called - $800.00
ronaldadio went all-in - $7630.00
VADHARA folded
Shjoker called - $7630.00
Shjoker shows: 8 of Clubs, 7 of Clubs
** Dealing the turn: 10 of Clubs
** Dealing the river: 6 of Spades
Shjoker wins $19260.00 from the main pot
End of game 642222240

 

[JAMILE1]

All I can say is WOW, short stack at table dealt J5o and all in on 775board WOW, hey I ain't no poker master by any stretch of the imagination but WOW I am just a newbie trying to get a PW but WOW

my apologies typo but WOW

 

[Ronaldadio]

All I can say is WOW, short stack at table dealt J6o and all in on 775board WOW, hey I ain't no poker master by any stretch of the imagination but WOW I am just a newbie trying to get a PW but WOW

U mean me the short stack??? I was dealt J5, not J6 !!!

 

[PopDog60]

Why you calling with that when ur short stacked?
Push or fold when ur short stacked - dont limp in with crap cards



on the other hand i do like the push on that flop... but too bad you played those cards
lol

 

[Ronaldadio]

Why you calling with that when ur short stacked?
Push or fold when ur short stacked - dont limp in with crap cards



on the other hand i do like the push on that flop... but too bad you played those cards
lol

U really think it was that bad pushing with 2 7`s on board and me catching the 5 giving me 2 pair?

 

[Egon Towst]

I don`t think you should have even been seeing the flop with that hand, Ron.

You`re down to 10x BBs, so you should be folding everything that`s not a pocket pair or AK, AQ, AJ (maybe AT). Save all your chips for one last big move. J5o is a trash hand and not even worth putting in the other half of the bet at this stage.

Given that you did see the flop, I think it was also wrong to push. All you really had was bottom pair and so-so kicker. Don`t get carried away with the idea that it`s two-pair when one of the pairs is on the board. It`s self-evident that everybody has that much, so all you really had was a pair of 5s.

 

[Ronaldadio]

Thanks Egon

I don`t think you should have even been seeing the flop with that hand, Ron.

You`re down to 10x BBs, so you should be folding everything that`s not a pocket pair or AK, AQ, AJ (maybe AT). Save all your chips for one last big move. J5o is a trash hand and not even worth putting in the other half of the bet at this stage.

Given that you did see the flop, I think it was also wrong to push. All you really had was bottom pair and so-so kicker. Don`t get carried away with the idea that it`s two-pair when one of the pairs is on the board. It`s self-evident that everybody has that much, so all you really had was a pair of 5s.

So would u advise an all in with any pp in any position?

To let u know my thinking. I called as by calling my chip stack would then have been 10 times bb. If I hit the miracle flop with J5 I would have won a lot.

When I hit flop with 775 my thinking was

1. 2 x 7`s means less chance of someone holding a 7
2. I`ve one of the 5`s, again less chance of someone else having it.
3. The person to act after me I put on 2 overcards - I though he was on the steal (turned out he was)
4. Again the other guy had called. After the event I should have given his call more respect. I put him on 2 overs also.
5. By going all in, unless one had a 7 or an overpair I thought they would fold. I obviously assumed they both had overcards only.

I would appreciate your thought on my though process - was it flawed?

As I said earlier, I should have given the caller of the raise more respect. Problem I had is at that stage I did not have enough chips to flat call. So I think I had to either fold or push - picked the wrong time to push

Thanks for your comments

 

[bubbasbestbabe]

The thing is, you are SB. With that hand a fold would have been more appropiate. You would have been given 7 more turns to see if you get an improved hand to play with. Also if you wanted some money you could have slowed the table down to see how many players you could wait out on the other tables. And if you are going to go all in with a hand like that push PF.
The biggest mistake that I can see is that you were playing the tourney overall instead of your table. Looking at the chip stacks you were in not to bad of shape at your table. You had five players on your table who were not in good shape either chip wise. I would have waited a little longer to try to improve my position and let these other guys take them selves out.

 

[myxiplx]

A agree with Egon, J5o is not a hand to be limping in with. I wouldn't limp with that any time, let alone short stacked, and with just the 5 paired it's very weak on the flop.

Shortstacked as you were, the standard tactic is to wait for a good hand (any pocket pair or high A) and push all in preflop. Limping is just too likely to deplete your stack at this stage.

You're essentially gambling all your chips on nobody else having a 7 or a higher pair, and on them not being prepared to gamble with overcards. However, thinking about this as I'm typing, I can see your thinking, and I actually quite like your logic. It's a nice size pot now representing a chance for you to add 50% to your chip stack, and it's pretty unlikely they have either a 7 or a higher pair.

Initially I thought it was a very risky strategy, but I think it may be worth doing the math on this one. I suspect you've got at least as good odds here as you do pushing all in with a premium hand.

 

[Ronaldadio]

Thanks Bubba

I think a lot of what you guys have said makes perfect sense.

I should not have called and I then acted too hastily.

Even if I am playing to win rather than just to make the money I will not win playing hands like that. As ever, thanks guys!!!

 

[Egon Towst]

So would u advise an all in with any pp in any position?

No. All in (at this stage) with JJ or better pair. With a smaller pair, use your judgement depending on position and number of callers.

If you have a middle/small pair and more than one caller, it`s probably too risky unless you are down to 5 BBs and have no time left to wait for a better hand.

I would appreciate your thought on my though process - was it flawed?

I can see where you are coming from, but I can`t help thinking that you`re not likely to beat any hand that calls your all in. So the best you can hope for is a small pot (if they fold to your raise) and you`re taking a huge risk of being knocked out. What you need is a double up, and this doesn`t look likely to yield that.

 

[Dorkus Malorkus]

No. All in (at this stage) with JJ or better pair. With a smaller pair, use your judgement depending on position and number of callers.

If the limpers are weak and limp-fold often there's a case for pushing anything down to 55/66 here with 10BBs.

Anyway, it's already been said, but the pf call is really bad. Calling off a tenth of your stack with J5o is just not reasonable. Push on the flop was okay considering it's as decent a flop for J5o as you can get without flopping a monster, but fold preflop!

You said you're playing to win and not to place - that's fair enough, but you're not gonna win by limping with J5o. There's a difference between being aggressive (not that limping pf is aggressive of course ^^) and being reckless.

 

[Bombjack]

Calling pre-flop is OK. HoH2 has a similar problem on page 188 where you're in the big blind with a stack of 8200 holding [qs][6d]. The big blind is 1200 and a middle position player raises to 2400, and the small blind calls. Harrington suggests you call because you're getting 5:1.

In Ronaldadio's hand he's getting 7:1 with a similar sort of hand and calling off a smaller proportion of his stack (about 5%) in an unraised pot, so this must be a much better place to call than in Harrington's problem.

I don't like the post-flop play though. I'd bet here and fold if called / raised.

 

[Dorkus Malorkus]

*Pulls out HoH2*

The key differences are that in the HoH example, (a) you are closing the action, (b) the collective Ms at the table are smaller, (c) your hand is (albeit marginally) stronger, and (d) three players are in the pot, not four.

I have to admit I don't even agree with calling in the HoH example though - I think once you get down to 10bbs you essentially have one move and one move only, and calling off any portion of your stack with the high likelihood you're going to be voluntarily letting yourself get into more trouble stack-wise is wrong. But in any case the hand in the OP is an easy fold.

 

[Bombjack]

*Pulls out HoH2*

The key differences are that in the HoH example, (a) you are closing the action, (b) the collective Ms at the table are smaller, (c) your hand is (albeit marginally) stronger, and (d) three players are in the pot, not four.

a) True, but if the BB raises you can easily throw it away. With limpers in, unlikely he'll raise without a strong hand.
b) In the Harrington example this is true for the small blind, but the raiser actually has a big stack, so I don't know why Harrington mentions this (maybe greater likelihood that raiser is on a steal). He gives this as a reason to think the starting hands aren't that strong, but I'd have thought that the fact this pot wasn't raised in the OP would suggest the same thing.
c) Very marginally - either way you need to hit a pair, so shouldn't make too much difference
d) True, but then pot-odds are better here. Having 3 players to act after you rather than one is the real issue.

It is a pretty marginal call but your pot odds are very good and throwing in another 400 is hardly committing you, with over 7000 left. Definitely not an "easy" fold.

 

[zebranky]

It is a pretty marginal call but your pot odds are very good and throwing in another 400 is hardly committing you, with over 7000 left. Definitely not an "easy" fold.

I'm with BombJack on this one - it's not an automatic fold. Your hand is esseantially trash, but the implied odss on this hand are great if you can limp it in and hit the monster hand. What are the odds of hitting 2 pair or better? Pretty slim, but on the other hand, who's gonna be afraid of a flop that comes J-5-2? or J-5-5? You're likely to be paid off huge if you do hit.

My personal feeling is that in the SB, if there are at least 3 others in the hand, it is a worthwhile investment if you can limp into the flop with ANY two cards. Yes, you'll fold on the flop 90-95% of the time - but for the price of 1/2 a bet, thats a great price for the implied odds.

AS for playing the flop, I will almost never bet out from the SB, because you just don't have information. Particularly in the case (hitting the 5 with 7's on the board), you're shooting in the dark if you push all in. The tactic that works for me is that I've built a habit of automatically checking the flop from SB - in a casino game, I check before the flop is even dealt. Once the other players recognize this pattern, in a lot of ways you've stolen the button - because nobody gains information from your check (Because they know you'll check with any hand), and if anyone bets, you can then act to steal the pot if its cheap (or play out your monster hand if you hit). The risk of giving everyone a free card by checking first is slim, especially late in a tournament, as someone will usually try to take the pot.

so, how would I have played the flop? a weak bet (aka fishing), or a check. If someone bets or raises you, figure your fives are no good, and fold it. If you get the free card, you're hoping for something 5 or below, or a 7 (a 1 in 3 chance, roughly) - giving you a full house, or at least meaning your two pair are probably still the best two pair. The high/middle PP should have bet the flop anyway, and two overcards are much less likely to call an all-in on the turn than they are on the flop.
anytime you get this sort of situation, think of your hand as a drawing hand, instead of a "made" two pair. Until you hit, you want to keep the potsize small if you can or fold if you can't.
I never go all-in on the flop unless I'm near certain another card will break my hand. Psychologically, people see opportunities on the flop - chances they can take and win. On the turn, they see doors closing - odds getting slimmer of making their hands. Hands of debatable strength and draws are much more likely to fold to your All-in on the turn.

Z

 

[Dorkus Malorkus]

I missed that Ron is SB here so it's only 400 to call (in my defense the HH is crap - what site is that? (a) blinds are not 800/1600 and (b) Ron is calling 400, not 800), so it's definitely marginal, though I still probably just fold. Yes, I know pot odds are huge, but I simply don't want to be playing OOP against three others with huge ranges, because situations similar to what actually happened will arise too often.

Once you're down to 10bb being the first to raise and having that first in vigorish preflop is absolutely huge. I simply don't want to be playing nothing hands out of position with a stack size which leaves no room for maneuver.

That said, the call isn't as bad as I first thought, obviously.

 

[PopDog60]

U really think it was that bad pushing with 2 7`s on board and me catching the 5 giving me 2 pair?

i said i liked your push there..

but you shouldnt have seen the flop with those cards