I hate QQs... I need some help analyzing my play with them

trip

trip

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I had such a terrible run with QQ twice in 1O mins in two different tournaments on the first orbit around the table.

First Tourney – NL Hold’em $200+15 buy-in

Blinds are 25/50, no antes

My stack 10,000, avg stack @ table about 10,000

6th hand of the tournament I pick up QQ in mid-late position, at a very lad back table with 9 players. I make a standard raise of 150. A weak active player (that’s called 3 raises pre-flop, checked down hands, folding to raised post flop and etc, 5 out of the 6 hands played so far) raises me to 400 one off the button, blinds fold, I call of course. The flop comes T 9 7 all different suits. Great Flop for me :) I check my hand, looking for him to make a move. He makes a value sized/continuation looking bet of about 55% of the pot? Hum… I give it some more thought. What could he possibly have? TT, 99, 88, JJ, KK, AK, AA? Keep in mind I had very little info so far other then this player played a lot of hands weakly. The pot has about 2,100 with his bet. I decide that I need to find out where I stand and re-raise his 1,100 to 2,500. He moves all-in!!!! Great now what? There’s now 13,500 in the pot and it will cost me 6,500 to call his all-in. I was just above 2 to 1 on my money. What could he possibly have re-raised post flop with AA, KK, and AK possibly, maybe JJ or TT, 99, 88, and 77 where unlikely, JT would explain the all-in move, possibly a simi-bluff, which I hand two of his outs. I figured I had a least a 40% chance given his play so far and his likely holdings. So I called, he flips over AA of course…

Was I wrong in calling? Would you have folded QQ in this situation? What would you have done?

Next tournament, 3 mins later, after shacking that one off.

50 + 5 buy-in, NL Hold’em

Blinds are 10/20, no antes

My stack 1,500, avg stack @ table about 1,500

5th hand of the tournament I pick up Qc Qs in mid-late position, at a very active table with a lot of limpers so far. Two players limp in from early position, I raise to 100, blinds fold, and both limpers call to my surprise. The flop comes Js 7s, 7c. Very nice flop for me :) maybe there’s hopes for QQ after all, not. Both limpers check to me. I make a bet of 75% of the flop. One limper folds, the other calls. What could this limper have? AJ, A7, KJ, QJ, suited connectors, mid-pair? The turn is the dreaded Jc. However, making it more unlikely he had one. At this point I have half my stack left, he has about half. I move all-in. He calls with 7h 4h. I almost fall of my chair. Wishing I could reach through the screen and strangle the guy! Who calls in early position with 7h 4h, and then calls 4 more bets and gets lucky on the flop…. The Donkey King of course...

Questions

Should have raised more pre-flop? Should I have played differently post-flop?


Any suggestions or comments are welcome.

Well today is not a total loss, I would have never found this site :). Good luck to all!

Trip
 
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alan1983

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Bit weird 2 be playing 200$ tourneys and still asking for advice on how 2 play QQ lol :p

1st hand:

He re-raised preflop. You said he previously called raises preflop, but re-raising is a whole other issue.

At this point, i think you could very much narrow it down to JJ, KK, AA, AK.

J10 is out of the question, and i guess he could have have a lower pair but thats bad news for you coz hes likely to have a set now.

When he reraises that makes AK less likely. You said he previously checked down hands well now hes being aggressive so he has a strong hand. Ak is out.

I guess you could still hope for JJ, or a loosely played A10 or something.

If i had KK idnt fold it, with QQ id kinda know im beat but still would be a hard fold.



2nd hand:

you had 1500. Raised to 100 preflop.

Pot is now 330? You bet 250, so you have 1150 of your stack left, which is over 2/3 and not half your stack right? I dunno, seems a bit early to risk your tournament while theres 2 pairs on board with someone who called a sizable flop bet.
 
Irexes

Irexes

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Great first post. Welcome to Cardschat.

6th hand of the tournament I pick up QQ in mid-late position, at a very lad back table with 9 players. I make a standard raise of 150. A weak active player (that’s called 3 raises pre-flop, checked down hands, folding to raised post flop and etc, 5 out of the 6 hands played so far) raises me to 400 one off the button, blinds fold, I call of course. The flop comes T 9 7 all different suits. Great Flop for me :) I check my hand, looking for him to make a move. He makes a value sized/continuation looking bet of about 55% of the pot? Hum… I give it some more thought. What could he possibly have? TT, 99, 88, JJ, KK, AK, AA? Keep in mind I had very little info so far other then this player played a lot of hands weakly. The pot has about 2,100 with his bet. I decide that I need to find out where I stand and re-raise his 1,100 to 2,500. He moves all-in!!!! Great now what? There’s now 13,500 in the pot and it will cost me 6,500 to call his all-in. I was just above 2 to 1 on my money. What could he possibly have re-raised post flop with AA, KK, and AK possibly, maybe JJ or TT, 99, 88, and 77 where unlikely, JT would explain the all-in move, possibly a simi-bluff, which I hand two of his outs. I figured I had a least a 40% chance given his play so far and his likely holdings. So I called, he flips over AA of course…

You're playing in a tournament with a decent buy-in so I think your default position should be that everyone is at least reasonable until demonstrated otherwise. I've been astonished myself at the donk level in $200 buy-ins but I think it's safer to assume that anyone unknown is aware of the value of their cards. At <$33 I reverse this assumption.

For me a reraise preflop from an unknown player is a very large % of the time AA or KK. QQ and AK follow but a long way behind. He's in the range where he wants a call as well. If it were 600+ I think you can say he's possibly defending a slightly weaker holding, a JJ or an AQ possibly, though still doubtful.

If I have QQ here I'm already suspicious and though I call as you did I'm kind of hoping for an A or K on the flop to get me out of a difficult situation. This may sound defeatist, but I've got a good stack and I don't want to be putting it all on the line here when I could have been behind from the moment the cards were dealt and my hand hasn't improved, without good cause.

The flop is either brilliant or horrific. TT is possible though unlikely and 99 and 77 are less so. AA and KK are ahead and probably staying there and the only thing you are getting much value from is JJ or someone chasing or bluffing. (with QQ the always hilarious distant possibility).

So he bets exactly the bet that someone reasonable holding AA or KK would given that he kind of needs to know where he is and rule out you having a set.

I like your reraise. It would be hellaweak to let things go here. But you say you raised to find out where you were and he tells you with his reraise all in.

I think at this point it is just about possible to let it go given that his play is entirely consistent with AA and KK and not a lot else. What could he be pushing that he would reraise preflop? JJ? maybe.. AK, can't see it unless you've been caught reraising flops before with air, even then it doesn't feel right.

Now this probably all looks a bit results oriented (and probably is) I'd have loved to analyse this without knowing what he had - but I would say that I have made laydowns here before (there's a thread somewhere that's not dissimilar and I still don't know what he had).

Yes you have pot odds that probably justify it, but I think that this is where MTTs differ from cash games in the chip EV does not = $EV and to be really successful you have to be able to take limited information and put someone on a specific hand.

Hopefully something in there of use :)


I'll do the other one later :)
 
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alan1983

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Good point. Good players always seek advice huh :p

Im just happy i know the results and can be a wiseass with my 2$ buyin tourneys :D
 
Irexes

Irexes

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Good point. Good players always seek advice huh :p

Im just happy i know the results and can be a wiseass with my 2$ buyin tourneys :D

Spot on matey. The more I learn the more I realise I have to learn and all that :)
 
Irexes

Irexes

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50 + 5 buy-in, NL Hold’em

Blinds are 10/20, no antes

My stack 1,500, avg stack @ table about 1,500

5th hand of the tournament I pick up Qc Qs in mid-late position, at a very active table with a lot of limpers so far. Two players limp in from early position, I raise to 100, blinds fold, and both limpers call to my surprise. The flop comes Js 7s, 7c. Very nice flop for me :) maybe there’s hopes for QQ after all, not. Both limpers check to me. I make a bet of 75% of the flop. One limper folds, the other calls. What could this limper have? AJ, A7, KJ, QJ, suited connectors, mid-pair? The turn is the dreaded Jc. However, making it more unlikely he had one. At this point I have half my stack left, he has about half. I move all-in. He calls with 7h 4h. I almost fall of my chair. Wishing I could reach through the screen and strangle the guy! Who calls in early position with 7h 4h, and then calls 4 more bets and gets lucky on the flop…. The Donkey King of course...

Questions

Should have raised more pre-flop? Should I have played differently post-flop?

Righty then, same caveat applies about knowing the result but still.

First, the guyplaying 47s in ep and calling a raise. Yes he's a donk, yes you wouldn't do that, but it doesn't mean you shouldn't be aware of and account for the fact that other people do. Obviously 47s is impossible to pick, but Jx and 7x are possible for all sorts of reasons. I love playing hands early in MTTs and in his position I'd limp and probably call your 5xbb raise with 78s, 67s, TJ, JQ, JK and possibly J9 and 97s.

The advantage is that you have tremendous implied odds and are also able to put the preflop raiser on a decent range. Had you raised a wee bit more, given the low level of the blinds and the multiple limpers you may pick up a tiny pot, but I think you will shake a few people playing for this reason. Later in a tourney a 5x BB is going to be huge but at the moment it's callable by a lot, from a LAG perspective.

The flop is great though and your bet is spot on. You've avoided the overcards and it's not too scary.

However the call should start to provide information. AA, KK don't seem in the picture, if people limp them, they usually reraise at the first opportunity. Mid-pairs 88-TT and Jx are squarely in the frame.

The second J I think gives you the chance to get out of this depending on how he plays it. However you don't give him a chance to tell you what he has as you push first.

Your comment "At this point I have half my stack left" strikes me as revealing.

You have 100% of your stack left, not half. The money in the pot is not yours anymore and you are far from pot committed. I appreciate I'm splitting hairs but the push on the turn seems a little fatalistic to me, you recognise the J as a scare card and push in order to have your fears confirmed.

Admittedly he's probably making you make the decision for your chips anyway but you should at least give yourself the chance to get away here. What is he calling your push with that you beat? TT, possibly. Yes you would like to avoid an A or K on the river but I think maybe you have a chance to get away at least.

For the record I think I go bust on this one a lot by pushing the flop :)

In general I don't like to get much beyond the flop with queens before the big decisions are made as I think they weaken with each card that comes out (JJ is even more susceptible to this). Nor do I like pushing QQ preflop. Very tricky hand to play as you say. Give me AK instead any day that's a doddle ;) .
 
Bombjack

Bombjack

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You should be able to find a fold in the first hand... basically, I'd just be repeating what Irexes said. You've lost a third of your stack but be happy you made a good fold and didn't go broke.

Next one... yuck - all-in??? A great case of "you're only getting called if you're beaten". There's absolutely no point pushing here. No worse hands than yours call you, and no better hands fold. You must suspect he has either a Seven or a Jack to call your flop bet. Basically you should check the turn, but against an aggressive opponent I like a "reverse blocking bet" here - make a small bet (~1/4 - 1/3 pot) and fold if raised - it looks like you could be value betting a monster (i.e. a Jack) but it makes it less likely you'll face a big bluff on the river which you have to fold to if you check.
 
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trip

trip

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Live and learn

Thanks for your help everyone. I have some leaks to work on. I should have played with more caution on both hands and I agree with you all. The alarms were going off in by head (he has AA or KK) when the unknown player moved in on me post-flop when I re-raised on the first hand. But I didn’t listen. Second time around, I was just not playing well. And yes, once the money in the pot it’s not yours anymore. I forgot the principle…

The funny thing is I can’t remember the last time I got QQ in either of these situations this early MT tourney. So it was a costly lesson, but one worth learning.

Trip
 
trip

trip

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On a side note, the next time I run into this situation # 1 with QQ, l will re-raise to 1200 instead of calling his re-raise to 400. I think this is the better play give how deep the starting chip stacks are (10,000 in One Mil MTT) this early in the tourney. If he moves all in, I can put him on AA, KK and possibly AK. Folding would be a no brainier. If he folds, he probably has 10 - JJ or AQ. If calls, I would have to play with caution through the remainder of the hand.
 
Irexes

Irexes

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On a side note, the next time I run into this situation # 1 with QQ, l will re-raise to 1200 instead of calling his re-raise to 400. I think this is the better play give how deep the starting chip stacks are (10,000 in One Mil MTT) this early in the tourney. If he moves all in, I can put him on AA, KK and possibly AK. Folding would be a no brainier. If he folds, he probably has 10 - JJ or AQ. If calls, I would have to play with caution through the remainder of the hand.

I like this and as a sidebenefit it also possibly makes him slow down if he has KK as your range must have AA figuring large.
 
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