How would you play this ?

[tenbob]

Hi folks, live game last night when this hand came up, I took this game down but there was one hand sticking in my mind, i didnt play this one after the flop, but maybe I should have..... ? I get [10h] [9d]

2500 starting chips, level 3, blinds 200-400.

UTG - Folds
Seat 2- (Passive,calling station stack 3200)- Calls 400
Seat 3 -(Too tight for his own good Stack 1700) - Calls 400
Seat 4-Fold
Seat 5- (Sees lots of flops, but plays his good flops v.aggressively stack 4500) - Calls 400
CO-Folds
Tenbob ( Excellent player, chip leader Stack 6500)- Calls 400
SB- Folds
BB- (Impossible to bluff her, passive calling station Stack 2800) - Calls

So were going into a flop with 5 players, giving us a pot of 2200.

Flop

[7c] [6h] [5d]

Now it gets interesting, co-ordinated board, BB bets out 400 (she rarely bets out, or raises pre-flop) im putting her on anything here, but a decent hand, over-pair, the flopped straight, 2-pair, or a set.

Seat 2- Folds
Seat 3 -Folds
Seat 5- Raises from 400 to 800
Tenbob ???????????

Pot stands at 3,400 for an 800 call.

What have i got seat 5 pinned on, well he is certainly value betting here, the girl in the BB will almost certainly call. So i think either an open-ended straight draw, or hes betting the bottom made end of the straight.

Im drawing to 4 outs, thats assuming that no-one is already holding an 8, which is very likely here. Decent sized pot, calling dosnt cripple me at all, and if I do hit im likely to take both the aggressive player and the passive player out of the game.

I folded, but on hind-sight i think a call would have been a better play, ok folks how would you have played it ?

 

[JAMILE1]

I'll give this a try. I think a call would be appropriate here being that the raise to 800 won't cripple you but hoping that the BB who bet out doesn't come OTT, I'd put her on maybe a hi pair(higher than board at least) damn I can't put my thoughts in words LOL dammit in short I'd call the bet and if don't improve on turn I'd fold JAMILE STFU U DSOB LMAO

what the hell do I know: NADAS

 

[t1riel]

I would fold here. The hand you have really isn't great to begin with and your chasing a striaght. Even if the raiser doesn't have a pair, he could have at least one overcard and then you have to worry about the girl who frist bet. I might call the first bet but I don't think it's worth chasing a straight by calling a raise.

 

[tenbob]

I was nearly 100% certain that the girl in the BB would flat call here, the reason i was considering having a look at the turn card was that if i did spike the 8 on the turn, i had position on both the bettor and the raiser, and they likelyhood of breaking both of them was high considering their playing styles.

 

[robwhufc]

I would fold here.

Then I would call - I don't even have to read Tenbob's post

 

[Dorkus Malorkus]

Fold preflop - the blinds are pretty big relative to the stacks so you should almost always be raising or folding preflop here, and T9o isn't a good enough hand to raise with. If the blinds were 25/50 or something, a limp is fine as long as the players behind you are passive preflop.

Given that you did call, you're still not getting odds to call on the turn. As the stacks aren't deep, your implied odds are poor, and though I'm too lazy to work it out for sure I'm quite sure you're not even getting pot odds to draw to 4 outs (assuming as you said that none of your outs are dead as at least one most likely is, anf that a T or a 9 aren't 'good' outs for you) here anyway. Would the other two players also really put all their chips in if the turn put four to a straight on the board if they didn't at least have a 9 in their hand?

But the main thing here is fold preflop. With the largest stack being around 15BBs, raise/fold is the order of the day preflop, and there's not going to be a lot that's worth drawing to postflop.

Lemme guess, the turn came up an 8 and you hated yourself? Well, if so it's a lesson in not being results-oriented.

 

[F Paulsson]

If you pay 800 to see the next card and spike it, are you really going to be able to get another 5000 out of whoever is left in the pot? That's what you need to pull off to make this draw worth it. I don't think you have the implied odds for it.

You do have some equity hiding in the runner-runner flush, but not all that much. I fold.

Other than that, what Chris said.

 

[Four Dogs]

If you pay 800 to see the next card and spike it, are you really going to be able to get another 5000 out of whoever is left in the pot? That's what you need to pull off to make this draw worth it. I don't think you have the implied odds for it.

You do have some equity hiding in the runner-runner flush, but not all that much. I fold.

Other than that, what Chris said.

Well said Chris an Fred. Sounds like you're up against top pair with a straight draw at the very least. Your only about 8% to hit the 8 on the turn and you can forget about the free card. I see your point about the 800 not hurting you to bad, but your the chip leader. Relax and let the others slog it out. At roughly 11:1 surely, a better opportunity will present itself.

I don't agree with Chris as far as folding preflop. You were getting 4.5:1 (should have been 5:1) pot odds with better than marginal cards and excellent position.
And Fred, there's no backdoor flush there.

 

[F Paulsson]

And Fred, there's no backdoor flush there.

Ew. Symbols are too small for me to read, apparently. Thought he had 10-9s.

Wait...

You limped with 10-9 OFFSUIT?!

Dear lord! Fold preflop!

 

[Four Dogs]

.

Wait...

You limped with 10-9 OFFSUIT?!

Dear lord! Fold preflop!

lol. Well, to each his own I guess. Here's another dirty little secret. I sometimes min raise.

 

[Osmann]

Lol I also thought he had the backdor flush draw. Guess you sometimes see what you want to see, instead of people limping in with unsuited connectors.

By the way, how can they see you as a rock if you call or simetimes raise with thoose kind of hands??? Is it because they are so loose they would call a raise with K3 offsuit, or?

 

[tenbob]

To be honest i folded this hand fairly quickly. But on thinking back based on my knowledge of both players i figured if i hit i could have broke them both with a little clever play.

Yea the odds were off, but the hands they were playing were weak, it transpired that the 8 came on the river, and both players went all-in, one with A-8 the other with A-7, very donkinsh play on both parts, and totally the quality of play that i was facing, bad reads on both players. Should have known better really.

Was it over cautious on my part ? More than likely, but why take the risk. Someone asked earlier IF i could extract the last 5K chips it may be worth it, well to be honest, i could easlily have broke one of them at the minunum.

So about the pre-flop call, with 10 9o, in fairness against poor opponents with lots of limpers, in position, would you fold ? Remembering these people will fold if they dont hit a piece, and if you hit hard the likely-hood of being paid off is high. So yea, id call this every day against the opposition in question.

Enjoyed the responses as usual...........

Just for the record in N/L games i dont even take back-door flush draws into consideration.

 

[chicubs1616]

So about the pre-flop call, with 10 9o, in fairness against poor opponents with lots of limpers, in position, would you fold ?

YES. The blinds are too high to be messing around with a hand like this in a pot with a bunch of people. You are better off pushing here than simply calling. Folding is also an option. I'm split between pushing and folding...

If you push, you might pick up an already large pot now or get called and still have a good shot at winning the pot (i.e. by a hand like Ax, or two broadway cards, or a small pocket pair). I wouldn't be too scared of an overpair here because no one has raised. If you haven't been playing too loose, a push here might even pick up the blinds and limps...

But on thinking back based on my knowledge of both players i figured if i hit i could have broke them both with a little clever play.

This is a dangerous board for your hand. With most likely 4 outs I don't even think about making this call on the flop the way you played it.

So, again, preflop I think pushing or folding is fine, and calling is the worst of the three.

 

[Four Dogs]

If you haven't been playing too loose, a push here might even pick up the blinds and limps...

You're going to drive out 3 limpers? What size raise are you talking about?
10,9 in position is a good speculative hand. When you hit the right flop you'll know it. When you don't you bail.

So the 8 hit on the river. I knew that was coming. If it hadn't you never would have second guessed your more prudent decision to fold.

 

[chicubs1616]

You're going to drive out 3 limpers? What size raise are you talking about?

Well, many players will fold hands like A8o and KJ, small pocket pairs, etc. if a large raise is made behind them.

With the blinds at HUGE proportions of you opponents stack, limping for them is just plain stupid. A lot of weak players will limp marginal hands hoping to see and flop and hit it. You want to make them pay to see cards, and many players don't have the guts to put all of their chips in the pot with a hand like Ax or two face cards...

The pot is already HUGE by time it gets to you, so by pushing (ALL-IN) you have a very good chance of picking up the blinds and limps from the players in ahead of you. If you are wondering why would you do this, what if the limpers have a good hand...if someone had a high PP or a hand like AK or AQ they most likely would have raised, in which case the likelihood of your opponents in front of you having this type of hand is slim.

This is a play based on aggression, and with the blinds so high, it will pay off!

 

[Four Dogs]

Let me get this straight. Limping in with 10,9 on the button against 3 callers with the blinds still to bet is "just plain stupid" but going all-in is smart? Hmmm. Looks like I got a lot to learn.

 

[tenbob]

You want to make them pay to see cards, and many players don't have the guts to put all of their chips in the pot with a hand like Ax or two face cards...

Re-read the origional post Chichubs. The very reason that I limped was because at least the girl in the BB and the guy in seat 2, would see ANY raise inculding an all-in, with Ax(s) and Kx(s) or any 2 broadway cards. This was the main reason i limped here.

My decision was VERY MUCH player dependant and based on previous reads on my opponents. If i was correct in my assumptions, if one or two players caught a piece of the flop and i caught a bigger piece i would break them.

In generally though i see your arguement as very valid, but i felt that a raise here would only sweeten the pot for the eventual winner, and a push would likely get 1 or even 2 callers. So I still like the pre-flop limp based on my read of the situation.

 

[shwingzilla]

To be honest i folded this hand fairly quickly. But on thinking back based on my knowledge of both players i figured if i hit i could have broke them both with a little clever play.

Yea the odds were off, but the hands they were playing were weak, it transpired that the 8 came on the river, and both players went all-in, one with A-8 the other with A-7, very donkinsh play on both parts, and totally the quality of play that i was facing, bad reads on both players. Should have known better really.

Was it over cautious on my part ? More than likely, but why take the risk. Someone asked earlier IF i could extract the last 5K chips it may be worth it, well to be honest, i could easlily have broke one of them at the minunum.

So about the pre-flop call, with 10 9o, in fairness against poor opponents with lots of limpers, in position, would you fold ? Remembering these people will fold if they dont hit a piece, and if you hit hard the likely-hood of being paid off is high. So yea, id call this every day against the opposition in question.

Enjoyed the responses as usual...........

Just for the record in N/L games i dont even take back-door flush draws into consideration.

Playing loose against loose players is poor play. You have the option of waiting for better hands to play with, and you won't be able to steal the blinds because they will call with anything. Limping in with marginal hands is a bad idea when you only have 10 BB.