How would you have bet to win this pot?

R

RMcLeod

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It was a pretty bad beat, I was 10:1 favourite on the flop and the turn. Would betting differently have forced the other guy to quit? I know it's hard to say as you don't know the guy's table image, but would you have handled things differently?

Stacks:
- BigCheese80 with 4620 - blackw14 with 2580 - Prompi with 9510 - RMcLeod79 with 3290

index.pl


index.pl

Blinds: 300/600
Site: party poker
Dealt to RMcLeod79:
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qc.gif

* - Sklansky group 3
Preflop:
**- 1 players fold.
RMcLeod79 calls [600]
* - BigCheese80 raises [900]
**- 1 players fold.
RMcLeod79 calls [600]
* - Total folds this street: 2
* - Potsize: 2100
Flop:
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ah.gif
9d.gif

* - BigCheese80 is all-in [3,420] RMcLeod79 is all-in [2,090]
* - Potsize: 7610
Turn:
8s.gif

* - Potsize: 7610
River:
th.gif

* - BigCheese80 shows a straight Eight to Queen:
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qh.gif

* - RMcLeod79 shows a pair of Aces:
as.gif
qc.gif

* - BigCheese80 wins 1,330 chips from side pot #1 with a straight, Eight to Queen.
* - BigCheese80 wins 7,180 chips from the main pot with a straight, Eight to Queen.
 
BelgoSuisse

BelgoSuisse

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This is the bubble of a STT, isn't it?

Open shove. You don't want action with blinds this high. You just want the blinds.
 
B

bw07507

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You have ~5 BB you absolutely must shove this preflop. Limping is really terrible in this spot.
 
NuRelic

NuRelic

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This is the bubble of a STT, isn't it?

Open shove. You don't want action with blinds this high. You just want the blinds.

Agreed, your on Bubble play and with AQo 4-handed, you need to decide what your approach is going to be.

Are you just planning to get to the money? If so your looking at Call/Folding if you miss or shoving like you did, and risk getting out-drawn, because you let other players get in on the hand.

If your playing to win, you'll need to push hard or shove Pre-Flop in this situation in order to get people out. There's $900 in the pot before you act (that's almost 1/3 of your chip stack) and you simply call ... bad idea! At this level, there's enough in the pot from the blinds alone to make it worth your while to go after. But to make matter worse, you do call and when BigCheese80 raises $300, you call again? HUH? There is $2,100 in the pot which constitutes 81% of your chip stack and you just call and give your opponent excellent odds to out draw you. No man, shove this ever time. You were prolly destined to lose, but there might have been a small chance of getting BigCheese to fold with a shove, but there's really no way to know.
 
Jack Daniels

Jack Daniels

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I don't even see this as a question, tbh. AQo on the button, four handed, UTG folds, effective M is about 1.5, this is an open shove every single time, IMO. Or shall we fold and wait for AA? :eek:
 
BelgoSuisse

BelgoSuisse

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I don't even see this as a question, tbh. AQo on the button, four handed, UTG folds, effective M is about 1.5, this is an open shove every single time, IMO. Or shall we fold and wait for AA? :eek:

Actually, AA would maybe be the only hand worth calling with instead of shoving. Anything else is too weak to trap with.
 
shinedown.45

shinedown.45

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Actually, AA would maybe be the only hand worth calling with instead of shoving. Anything else is too weak to trap with.
Sure AA is the only hand you want to shove with but(As it has been stated before)with an M of 1.5 we don't have time to wait for AA and getting all your chips in preflop AQ is the only sane move here.
 
Ronaldadio

Ronaldadio

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I agree with the other guys.

The limp caused all the problems.

After you called his raise there was no way he was going to fold.

Having said that, I would have folded to your all in - the other guy had zero !!!

So, moto of the story, push all in next time u r in that position or fold - don`t limp :)
 
dj11

dj11

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In this particular case, I agree that your first move should have been a shove, not a limp. But I'd guess it really wouldn't matter here.

4 handed, bigger blinds than stacks (figuratively speaking), I think he would have called your shove here anyway.
 
Zorba

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Shove preflop here let them decide to risk calling.
More than likely he would have called anyway.
 
Jack Daniels

Jack Daniels

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I think he would have called your shove here anyway.

More than likely he would have called anyway.
Really? You think the 2nd chipstack (even in this scenario) is going to call off 75% of his stack with a QJo? What's he beating here to have this make any sense at all? He's losing to any A, any K, and any pair. He's most like a huge dog here to an open shove. If he calls (and in most cases loses), he has 1000 chips left and an effective M of 0.45. IMO he'd have to be a moron to make that call.
 
c9h13no3

c9h13no3

Is drawing with AK
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Sorry guys, what is M?
Add together all the blinds & antes, and then divide your stack by that value. And you get M.

To get your effective M, multiply by the % capacity the table is holding.

For example, in this situation:

RMcLeod79 with 3290
BB = 600
SB = 300
Total = 900
3290/900 = 3.65 <-- M level of a full table

4 players at the table, full capacity is 10.

4/10 = 0.4
0.4*3.65 = 1.46

1.46 <--- Effective M

M level just gives you an idea of how you should be playing pots. This M is VERY low. If your M drops below about 10, any pot you play should be all in.

Here's a link to a better explanation.
 
Cheetah

Cheetah

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If the villain was an idiot, which seems to be the case, our hero's call was not bad at all. Let's not be results oriented.

I have busted a lot of idiots with calls like that, even though I don't like calling.
 
Ronaldadio

Ronaldadio

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If the villain was an idiot, which seems to be the case, our hero's call was not bad at all. Let's not be results oriented.

I have busted a lot of idiots with calls like that, even though I don't like calling.

I have to disagree here :)

I think the chip stacks dictates an all in, or a fold if u feel that way.

If the idiot does call, as you sugested, we are getting our money in with the best hand. I don`t think this is the time to get clever.

IMO I see no other play other than an allin push here - taking into account all of the circumstances.

Please don`t take this the wrong way Cheetah, but I think we would be being more results orientated by saying `our hero's call was not bad at all` after the event. What if we had missed the flop? U would then be sitting with Ace high.

All that said, when an ace hits the flop in those circumstances, I think it was very, shall we say `brave` for the other guy to push in all of his chips on a complete bluff when our Hero was almost pot committed.
 
S

Stan7777

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I agree with most of whats writen here. If your playing the pot it should be all in. Not limp on the button. If you want action I'd of used a "stop and go". 3X BB standard and push on any three cards postflop regaurdless. You end up all in anyway but sometimes the preflop caller lays down on a scary board. Might have worked better against QJ off here.
If this is a steal 1st and foremost the all in push is the play. That or the stop and go is mostly about style. I do like to mix the 2 up on the bubble.
As everybody has said limping is terrible here. Hand just isn't strong enough.
 
dj11

dj11

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Really? You think the 2nd chipstack (even in this scenario) is going to call off 75% of his stack with a QJo? What's he beating here to have this make any sense at all? He's losing to any A, any K, and any pair. He's most like a huge dog here to an open shove. If he calls (and in most cases loses), he has 1000 chips left and an effective M of 0.45. IMO he'd have to be a moron to make that call.

Experience suggest yes JD, the QJ who already showed a willingness to play this hand big, would have likely called an all in to him.

4 handed, small stack and blinds on the verge of crushing us, as bad of a decision as it really is, QJ is very live and tho admitedly not as sweet as AA, it will tend to play well 4 handed with a low M.

Keep in mind that this is a SnG, not a big MTT where the players have shown lots of smarts to get to this point. I haven't played Party for a long time, but the word speed, on the table suggests a fast loose SnG, with rapid levels. This hand may be only 30-40 minutes in, and the end is near.

I'll stand by my statement that it is very likely villain calls an all-in to him in this situation.
 
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M

mafalda34

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I agree with most of the guys that was an automatic all-in preflop.

But then both players are all-in so theres nothing else to do.
 
Jack Daniels

Jack Daniels

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Experience suggest yes JD, the QJ who already showed a willingness to play this hand big, would have likely called an all in to him.
This is the very definition of results oriented. You're looking at how he did play this hand and using it to make a conclusion of how he would probably play the hand. Even if it's true that he'd make the call, that just further enforces my "he's a moron" claim. But his making the call as played vs his making the call if shoved are mutually exclusive and cannot be derived simply based on results of this hand.

4 handed, small stack and blinds on the verge of crushing us, as bad of a decision as it really is, QJ is very live and tho admitedly not as sweet as AA, it will tend to play well 4 handed with a low M.
I would be willing to agree with this if QJ is opening the hand for a push, but not in this situation. There is a limper in front already. And in this case, it's an absolutely horrible hand to call if the decision is for all of your chips (e.g. OP open shove PF).

I'll stand by my statement that it is very likely villain calls an all-in to him in this situation.
And of course I'll stand by mine that he might call, but doing so makes him a complete and utter moron as well as I would add that this is someone you want on your buddy list for the future. Take good notes on him too because he's dead money.
 
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