Hole in my game

[IrishDave]

Playing a $10 SNG on Fulltilt last night and I donked off most of my chips on the following hand:

Blinds are 100/200, I'm 2nd in chips with 5400

I'm BB with A-J clubs, middle position and small blind limp in, I raise to 800
middle position folds small blind calls.

Flop 4-8 clubs and J hearts. Top pair and nut flush draw, I bet 1000, SB calls

Turn Q diamonds. Suspected SB had Jacks, and maybe A-J like I did, bet 1600, small blind calls.

River 5 of spades. No flush possible, have no clue what small blind has, I check, he checks and rolls over a Q-6 offsuit and wins the pot.

I would never call nearly 2000 chips with a Q-6 off but this guy did and crippled me. My question is: How do you defend against this?

To this point I had been exceedingly tight, flop percentage was 8% and had won every hand I entered (4 I think)

Yeah, I could have pushed all-in on flop - he may have called anyway...

 

[robwhufc]

. My question is: How do you defend against this?

You dont! You did a good job getting the chips in the middle - he could only possibly have seen the Q as an out surely.

You still had 2,000 chips when you lost so you weren't crippled. You know he's an idiot, so if you dont lose your rag, you can still battle back.

 

[F Paulsson]

It's not your play that needs work here, Dave, it's Mr. Donk in the SB.

 

[Grumbledook]

I would have gone all in on the flop 2400 in chips would have been a nice amount to pick up here

 

[IrishDave]

I would have gone all in on the flop 2400 in chips would have been a nice amount to pick up here

When I relooked at this hand, while I don't think I really played "wrong" I probably should have pushed allin on the flop. May have been called anyway; however, there's a chance it would have forced the donk out. Thanks for the input folks, these kinds of hands drive me crazy...

 

[Dorkus Malorkus]

Why push and take away value? You want him to call with his Q6 or whatever it was, because he has 3 outs to beat you and you will win much more often than you lose. Only a handful of cards can scare you on the turn/river assuming you know he's a donk and will call with crap like he has. You value bet calling stations to death, you don't play push/fold with them.

You played it fine imo, though pushing the turn is most likely a better option than making a weak bet that screams "that Q scared me". Of course he has a Q in this case and will probably make a stupid call, but you can't be results-oriented like that - the donk could just as easily have had 4x, 8x, a lesser club draw or even something like 56.

 

[Grumbledook]

sorry I disagree

the pot was at 2k on the flop and you have 4.6k left, if you are going to make any decent size bet it won't leave you enough chips to make any kind of bet on the turn or river.

its an automatic push, or if you think by checking he will bet, go for the check raise, any doubt in giving away a freecard then its back to pushing

win that pot and your up to 6.6k

 

[Four Dogs]

It's always easiest to assume the other guy is an idiot. As if he should automatically know that you hit top pair but Q-6o was such an awesome hand that he just couldn't let it go even after the flop missed him. Is it possible that you're just steamed because you know what he had? Sometimes there are other explanations. You led out right? Tell me, do you respect every continuation bet?
All you had was top pair.
He called a big raise on the flop. What Would you have done if he had immediately followed it up with a pot sized bet on the turn? How good are you feeling about your hand now? Would you have called him to the river? Maybe with all your outs, but he couldn't know that.

Or he's just an idiot who drew out on you.

 

[Dorkus Malorkus]

Let's see.

- SB limped with crap from the SB.

- SB called a pf raise from BB into 2 limpers with crap.

- SB CALLED (fold > raise > call here) the flop bet with nothing, then proceeded to show no aggression when his one overcard actually hits on the turn (what's he waiting for - running Qs? a running straight perhaps?) and then checks the river.

He played every single street awfully. If you can't easily come to the conclusion that he is an awful player (or a drunk/stoned/whatever otherwise decent player) from this, you need to work on your reads.

 

[Four Dogs]

- SB CALLED (fold > raise > call here) the flop bet with nothing, then proceeded to show no aggression when his one overcard actually hits on the turn (what's he waiting for - running Qs? a running straight perhaps?) and then checks the river.

Or, now that he actually has a chance to win the pot without the necessity to drive Dave off his hand he is content to check it down.

He played every single street awfully. If you can't easily come to the conclusion that he is an awful player (or a drunk/stoned/whatever otherwise decent player) from this, you need to work on your reads.

OK Dork I'll get right to work. I guess there's never another explanation. Vanilla is the only exceptable flavor and anyone who likes cookie dough is drunk stoned or whatever.

 

[xdmanx007]

IMHO A larger bet was warranted on the flop, an allin? depends on his chip stack. Doubtful allin just bet the pot, appears you bet around halfpot. The main reason you have to fire harder than you want to against bad players is you MUST get chips in there to cover times like these when you get drawn out on. The other reason to fire harder is the pot size is large enough to make a take down bet BEST, not the only play mind you, but BEST to take it down now. Don't get greedy but don't get too passive either. Best play fire harder at the flop if you get called so be it. Dork raises a very common opinion about "value" against tougher opponents yes you could try and get a call here. Just my opinion but against bad players and you holding a medium strength hand you don't really want the hand to completely play out especially in tournament style poker!

 

[Dorkus Malorkus]

I don't like vanilla, it's boring.

Or, now that he actually has a chance to win the pot without the necessity to drive Dave off his hand he is content to check it down.

Familiar with the term "calling station"?

Please just explain to me one thing - if he's not confident enough to bet (or raise) when his one overcard does fall, why is he calling on the flop? If he's unsure if a Q is even good if it comes, he has no business in the hand at all postflop unless he's going to try and drive the other player out of the pot, and last I looked check-calling wasn't a very effective tactic for doing this.

 

[F Paulsson]

Please just explain to me one thing - if he's not confident enough to bet (or raise) when his one overcard does fall, why is he calling on the flop?

I thought I replied saying something to that effect yesterday, but I must have missed clicking "Submit Reply".

Mr. Malorkus makes a great point (it's funny how points I agree with are always great, isn't it?) - which can be taken one step further in terms of general advice:

If, after the flop, you have a hand that you think needs to improve that you want to play, you should consider what the best case scenario for the turn is. Make a plan. Think, "the following cards will improve my hands, and will improve my hand to a <pair, straight, flush, trips, two pair, whatever>. If that happens, I'm likely ahead."

If you have doubts as to whether or not you're ahead even if your best possible card DOES fall, then you shouldn't call to begin with. Your best possible card must be worthy of a raise.

 

[colin_147]

With no overcards on the flop, I would definitely make a minimum pot sized bet on the flop, as I am putting him on AK or AQ, or some kind or drawing hand. Worst ways he has a medium PP

I wouldnt say it was badly played by you. Preflop you are correct to raise. He could well be on tilt, as a lot of players on tilt feel that once they have called and the BB raises, they call for the hell of it anyway hoping to catch. With the flop he may figure you have missed the flop and is hoping to catch, which he does

Now when you are dealt these cards your first thought is "ok, this is a raising hand, hopefully they limp I can raise and they will fold preflop, pick up the limps". With 1 caller and a great flop, you would normally be making a potsized bet here to push him off the hand, when he calls you are thinking "does he have a big PP?" When the Q comes on the turn, you are possible slightly worried he has AQ and make a cautious bet on the turn. On the flop you are thinking your AJ isnt so great and IMO you are correct to check.

He is a fool to call preflop and the flop but you could quite easily have lost all your chips with this hand, and IMO played ok to stay in the game