Help me out on this call

[XXXDIRTYDOGXXX]

I have two things to say first:

(1) don't listen to backseat poker players!
(2) even when you lose you can find something good.

here's what happened.

full tilt poker Game #3689660801: $1,000 Guarantee (Rebuy) (27639315), Table 221 - 60/120 - No Limit Hold'em - 18:43:45 ET - 2007/09/27
Seat 1: socrates999 (5,225)
Seat 2: - Jub Jub Sez- (3,260)
Seat 3: UPTOOYOU (250), is sitting out
Seat 4: DoceBee (200), is sitting out
Seat 5: One Ole Goat (2,175)
Seat 6: Bobby Hutton (15,222), is sitting out
Seat 7: terry2862 (6,080)
Seat 8: XXXDIRTYDOGXXX (3,878)
socrates999 posts the big blind of 120
The button is in seat #8
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to XXXDIRTYDOGXXX [As Kc]
- Jub Jub Sez- raises to 360
UPTOOYOU folds
DoceBee folds
One Ole Goat calls 360
Bobby Hutton folds
riqy17 sits down
riqy17 adds 3,713
terry2862 has 15 seconds left to act
terry2862 folds
XXXDIRTYDOGXXX calls 360
socrates999 folds
*** FLOP *** [Ac Qd Th]
Bobby Hutton has returned
- Jub Jub Sez- checks
One Ole Goat bets 360
XXXDIRTYDOGXXX has 15 seconds left to act
XXXDIRTYDOGXXX raises to 720
- Jub Jub Sez- folds
One Ole Goat raises to 1,815, and is all in
XXXDIRTYDOGXXX has 15 seconds left to act
XXXDIRTYDOGXXX calls 1,095
One Ole Goat shows [Qs Ad]
XXXDIRTYDOGXXX shows [As Kc]
*** TURN *** [Ac Qd Th] [4c]
*** RIVER *** [Ac Qd Th 4c] [5h]
One Ole Goat shows two pair, Aces and Queens
XXXDIRTYDOGXXX shows a pair of Aces
One Ole Goat wins the pot (4,830) with two pair, Aces and Queens
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot 4,830 | Rake 0
Board: [Ac Qd Th 4c 5h]
Seat 1: socrates999 (big blind) folded before the Flop
Seat 2: - Jub Jub Sez- folded on the Flop
Seat 3: UPTOOYOU didn't bet (folded)
Seat 4: DoceBee didn't bet (folded)
Seat 5: One Ole Goat showed [Qs Ad] and won (4,830) with two pair, Aces and Queens
Seat 6: Bobby Hutton didn't bet (folded)
Seat 7: terry2862 didn't bet (folded)
Seat 8: XXXDIRTYDOGXXX (button) showed [As Kc] and lost with a pair of Aces

As you can see after the flop (Jub Jub Sez) checks, (One Ole Goat) bets 360, and I paused to figure out what I wanted to do, now I have a buddy of mine behind me telling me I have to raise Which at that point in time I felt was right. But then when (One Ole Goat) went all-in I knew he held AQ but listening to my so called buddy telling me I have to call I did and it turns out I was right and he sat there laughing this ass off but still said I did the right move. What do you guys think? Was it the right move?

As I said I still felt good that I could see what he had even though it was quite easy to read. I can see that I'm picking things up better. Before I would have made that call with out his help and probably would have went all-in.
well I would like to here what you all think. Thanks Dirtydog

 

[arkadiy]

I might have even put him on a JK for the straight.....but ya, sucks not sure what you could've done I think you played it well. (I know I wouldn't have folded either)

 

[DP_Machine]

I'm just curious as to how far into the tournament was this? Also interested to know if rebuys were still available after this hand?

If rebuys were still available I would say that you definitely make the call. Your tournament life isn't at stake if you can just rebuy again and you can afford to make plays that are on the looser end. If the rebuy period is over - then it's a harder decision since you're left w/ roughly 1700. Not entirely on tilt but you'd be in the orange/red zone where you'll need to double through someone soon after to keep afloat.

Nonetheless, I agree with your call since on one hand you either put him on a set, flopped straight or the two pair. Against each one you have 6-7 outs for a chop or straight to make your hand. On the other hand, you may be up against AK or AJ as well - they would have top pair with a decent kicker as well as a gut-shot straight draw. So you're not entirely dead either way.

It was an opportunity to bust/gain a lot of chips for the rest of the tourney, but it didn't work out when looking at top 2 pair. It's a hard hand to get away from, but given what you knew about the hand at the flop, I think your raise was appropriate to see where you were at in the hand and then your all-in call was justified b/c of your investment in the pot.

 

[maltz]

If you re-raise and get re-raised back, expect at least two pair. Definitely a fold for you.
Like world conflicts, players tend to re-raise each other non-stop out of rage. If you have the nuts, you want that to happen. Otherwise you have to be careful.

By the way, when you mini re-raised one step before, did you mean to force him to fold? Or you just want to extract more money from him?

If you want him to fold you have to bet more than doubling his bet, or he can call even with an open-ended straight draw. And it somehow tells him a message that your hand isn't THAT good. Right? If you want him to fold you want to tell him that your hand is REALLY good.

If you want to extract more money from him, you must have total confidence in your hand. Top pair top kicker here is OK but not so good. Great players know to control pot sizes according to their hand strength. If you have the top straight, you want to build a gigantic pot (thus, mini-reraise seems to be a good way to extract more money). Your situation is dangerous, so you want to keep the pot as small as it can be.

However, I would re-raise 3X his bet (1080, 720 extra for him). This way I sure can get rid of the draws, and I can see how good his hand is. If he re-raise all in I will fold right there as I know I am beaten. In your case, he might call your re-raise and check to river with you.

Alternatively you just call his bet and see what turns out. That's a little weak and you might be milked for more chips than that re-raise!

 

[XXXDIRTYDOGXXX]

To DP Machine it was 15 minutes after the break so there were no more rebuys. And thanks

To maltz at the time I was sort of poking to see what he had cause he bet less than 1/3 of the pot at that time and at the same time try to send the message that I had an ace and good kicker if he did indead had an ace. But like I said I was ready to fold when he re-raised all-in, but I had to listen to my buddy. I said it out loud "I know he has AQ" but he said I had to call in that spot. So I listened. His re-raise put him all-in so it wouldn't have mattered if he just called because if he did I would have pushed all-in anyway. So the out come would have been the same.
I was down to 1200 in chips and all-in about 20 minutes later and got my pocket aces cracked by trip kings. Thanks for you input

 

[XXXDIRTYDOGXXX]

Sorry about any spelling in the previous post and any future post as well. English wasn't my strongest area in school. I feel that if I had folded when (One Ole Goat) re-raised all-in it would have changed the way I played the few hands I had later on, maybe not I probably would have still went all-in with the pocket aces and still lost to trip Kings. Oh well something to learn from. Thanks again Dirtydog

 

[Flops'm&Bets'm]

Problem A) Listening to someone when you should go with what your instinct is telling you.

Problem B) Raising when a Call would have saved you some of your stack since you did have a straight draw and if You did puthim on A-Q..
then you had good Implied odds with Potentially 4-outs to a straight and 3 outs to a higher 2 pr. and the other thought is if he is playing A-rag or A-K also.

Problem C) Was that he re-raised you..Red Flag there!
If you had flat called, and saw the turn was a brick, chances are if you value bet (120) the river, he would have wanted to take down the pot right there and re-raised you. (And the 3rd player in the pot folded like a cardboard box on your re-raise chances are he'd have folded to the C-Bet Post-Flop)
Or he would have flat called you then slammed you on the river.
Since there were no flush draws only a straight draw his Re-raise on the turn would have told you that he had either a straight or a set. and thus only costing you (840) in total to see where you stood rather than leaving you with a chip & a chair. (I realize it wasn't but left you with 10xBB where as you would have had 25+ BB Left and Fold equity)

Hope this helps to see what is what, - rather than curiosity kills the cat!
If you can fix the "I have to see his hand" leak you will do much better.
If you want to see the holdings, make sure you aren't crippling yourself to do it. Or have him dominated with the nutz then the 'ball' in in your court..

~Or the cat is in your litter box taking the dump~

 

[dj11]

Thing to put on your list;

1 Knock your buddy silly.

2 Listen to your own inner voice

3 Post hands like these in the proper thread.

 

[XXXDIRTYDOGXXX]

to dj11:

1 yes I did

2 I get that also

3 I had the post already done when I realized it was in the wrong place
would this go under strategies
4 Thank you

To flops'm: thanks again, my problem wasn't that I needed to see what he had but listening to someone else. I think if I just called and then the blank came and he went all-in I would have thought that he was pushing me of the pot and then I would have called to protect or if he just tried to throw out another small bet I would have pushed. From what I've seen on freerolls It's 50/50 one half does a bluff with a piece of the pot (or nothing at all) trying to scare you off and the other half has the goods.
I think that the only reason that I saw his hand is that he came at me so hard right away, and I only called his re-raise because my friend said the same as you (7 outs) but if he didn't say anything then I know I would have folded right then. Problem is my friend is a pretty good poker player in his own right (super math wiz - VP of accounting for a major bank) and has alittle more money to blow then I do so he takes chances alittle more.
thanks again, dirtydog

 

[Tammy]

It's no problem, I can move this thread to the proper place.

One piece of advice about posting for hand analysis: make sure to leave off the results until later on in the thread, as you will get more straight forward answers. Seeing the results often leads to results orientated comments.

Having said that, knowing what your opponent had, there was no way you were getting him off this hand. If I didn't know he had AQ, I would say if you plan to reraise his 360 bet, it needs to be more than the minimum. Like it has been said, 3-4x raise would have been better. But then again, you need to think about how much you want to commit to the pot with TPTK.

With the push all-in, it's a tough call. I think you had the right instincts to fold, and survive a little longer.

 

[KingCurtis]

No way def. wrong move i have had plenty of people call my AQ with AK and i had two pair...........i mean honestly he bet about 1/3 of the pot maybe less he was just asking for a reraise...... you raised then he re raised uynless hes making a really good move on you he has the goods so fold em and live to see another hand!.....and also try to listen to your instincts someone else changing your mind can make your game all crazy unless you r jamie gold and have a personal mentor throughout the wsop lol lol

 

[XXXDIRTYDOGXXX]

THANKS AGAIN !

 

[Mopar384]

The right thing?

First of all, did you have a "read" on one ol goat? If you thought he was bluffing, you played it right. But, out of the box , A Q 10 flop, my experience has been that he was holding J K, and you should have folded. I've seen that a lot.