tenbob
Legend
Silver Level
^^^^^^^^^ See above ammendments.
Also read this https://www.cardschat.com/forum/poker-strategy-33/hand-analysis-posting-guidelines-68850/
Lafaena
Enthusiast
Silver Level
What now? check ? bet? i could bet like half the pot and try to take there and then, but what if i get raised? i could bet full sized pot but i think that would seem pretty weak to him. Like why woulndt i checkt the king? felt pretty confident i have the best hand. Hes the kinda of agro guy that raises with any pp or acehigh preflop so i felt pretty confident i had the best hand(watched him play a while and bust a guy before i sat down)another.
Lafaena
Enthusiast
Silver Level
turn kc
feel like that he might raise me if i suddenly wake up bet like half the pot here so i check and hope that he checks behind.
he bets 6.5 into the 8 dollar pot.
This seems like a "ok u called me on flop but can u call this? kinda bet" felt like he would bet less had he hit the king. But the fact that he bet a halfpot on flop and dindt raise preflop might indicate that he has a weak king. alltough he might just raise with that too ( agro player). did see him raise with k 8 off before(against the other player) in position.
feel like that he might raise me if i suddenly wake up bet like half the pot here so i check and hope that he checks behind.
he bets 6.5 into the 8 dollar pot.
This seems like a "ok u called me on flop but can u call this? kinda bet" felt like he would bet less had he hit the king. But the fact that he bet a halfpot on flop and dindt raise preflop might indicate that he has a weak king. alltough he might just raise with that too ( agro player). did see him raise with k 8 off before(against the other player) in position.
ChuckTs
Legend
Silver Level
Quote for emphasis. We really need more info here to make any good analysis.
XxJackAcexX
Rock Star
Silver Level
i agree! only half the information i would need to give advice!
Lafaena
Enthusiast
Silver Level
Ok smart ass jack plz tell me what information your missing!
time of day?
site?
the length of my @££$@@ ?
Its a hu cashgame
not a 7 sevenhanded final table
what more do u want?
plz tell me what the missing half of information your missing is jack(ass)!
and i dont have a handhistory sry bout that
time of day?
site?
the length of my @££$@@ ?
Its a hu cashgame
not a 7 sevenhanded final table
what more do u want?
plz tell me what the missing half of information your missing is jack(ass)!
and i dont have a handhistory sry bout that
ChuckTs
Legend
Silver Level
If you want a nice, clear response, then post a nice, clear hand. Look through the HA forums and see how other people post, then try to emulate that.
I wouldn't be writing in this thread if I didn't want to help you with your hand, so I'd appreciate you holding the rude comments back.
I wouldn't be writing in this thread if I didn't want to help you with your hand, so I'd appreciate you holding the rude comments back.
stormswa
Legend
Silver Level
lol
great 1st impression you are making here.
otherwards would this player likely bet with air?
The way you have played the hand I would of folded on flop, he is either betting with air or he actully has something. All you are ahead of is complete air, do you really want to get stacked trying to make some heroic call with ace high?
Like someone said you should of raised preflop and/or on the flop, ace rag is favored over some random hand Head up but it still isnt strong enough to try to trap by just limping.
great 1st impression you are making here.
otherwards would this player likely bet with air?
The way you have played the hand I would of folded on flop, he is either betting with air or he actully has something. All you are ahead of is complete air, do you really want to get stacked trying to make some heroic call with ace high?
Like someone said you should of raised preflop and/or on the flop, ace rag is favored over some random hand Head up but it still isnt strong enough to try to trap by just limping.
Lafaena
Enthusiast
Silver Level
Im sry but i do think i have a point. "i agree! only half the information i would need to give advice!" this comment ticked me off as i felt like its not true, and a silly way of putting me down(and himself up). Ok whatever
back to the hand.
And yes he was pretty likely to bet with air, but more important he would likley raise preflop with almost all the hands i loose to(small pp, k-10 and better ak/kj kq) weak king was the only thing i really was afraid of. I also dindt think he had k the cuz because of his bet 6.5 into an 8 pot on the turn.
ok river is 3 of spades and its now i relize ive made a mistake on the turn. If he fires ?third bullet? i would be in a tough spot. . he has 34 of clubs for a flushdraw on the turn. And he wins with eights full. What i really wanna ask in this tread is when do u call an agressive player to let him hang himself and when do u raise? im trying not to be result orientated here but i still think i should have raised the turn, he has probably bluffed twice and i woulda made a nice win and woulndt have put myself in a tough should he deside to bluff again on river.
back to the hand.
And yes he was pretty likely to bet with air, but more important he would likley raise preflop with almost all the hands i loose to(small pp, k-10 and better ak/kj kq) weak king was the only thing i really was afraid of. I also dindt think he had k the cuz because of his bet 6.5 into an 8 pot on the turn.
ok river is 3 of spades and its now i relize ive made a mistake on the turn. If he fires ?third bullet? i would be in a tough spot. . he has 34 of clubs for a flushdraw on the turn. And he wins with eights full. What i really wanna ask in this tread is when do u call an agressive player to let him hang himself and when do u raise? im trying not to be result orientated here but i still think i should have raised the turn, he has probably bluffed twice and i woulda made a nice win and woulndt have put myself in a tough should he deside to bluff again on river.
stormswa
Legend
Silver Level
ok thats pretty simple, you need a monster hand in order to just call a player down and let them hang themselves. In your spot with just ace high I wouldnt try to make the heroic call because honestly the entire hand you have no idea where your hand is at. I think check/raising the flop would of been good here to gauge where your hand is at.
welcome to forum
Lafaena
Enthusiast
Silver Level
when to raise
The only way this overagro donk(got that confirmed later) would not bet that flop if checked to is if he had the case 8. I agree that a flop raise would be nice, but i think that against theese types on that flop u should sometimes wait with the raise untill the turn.
The only way this overagro donk(got that confirmed later) would not bet that flop if checked to is if he had the case 8. I agree that a flop raise would be nice, but i think that against theese types on that flop u should sometimes wait with the raise untill the turn.
stormswa
Legend
Silver Level
the only problem with just calling the flop is there are only 4 cards you would be ok to see on the turn. case 8 or a ace, any other card could make his hand. If he has 23, and a 2 or 3 comes on the turn he will not be folding to your raise on the turn. A good player might but like you said he is a donk and will not be laying down a full house here no matter how weak it is.
you were out of position in this hand right, I believe I read that right so I think a check raise on the flop would of taken it down enough to make it a +ev play. If you were in position I dont mind the check/check.
Bombjack
Legend
Silver Level
The reason you raise the flop is because you want to take it down now. Like stormswa said, you need a stronger hand to let him take free cards. He's usually drawing at at least 6 outs so has around 25% equity. In this case with the backdoor flush he has getting on for 30%.
So if you raise anything less than about pot-size, he is right to call and you've made a mistake. By not raising at all you've made a bigger mistake.
So if you raise anything less than about pot-size, he is right to call and you've made a mistake. By not raising at all you've made a bigger mistake.
Lafaena
Enthusiast
Silver Level
hu
"the only problem with just calling the flop is there are only 4 cards you would be ok to see on the turn. case 8 or a ace, any other card could make his hand. If he has 23, and a 2 or 3 comes on the turn he will not be folding to your raise on the turn."
no if he calls my raise on the turn im done with the hand unless an ace or an eight hits the river. But keep in mind that there are only six cards he would like that could hit the turn , but i knew that he was very likely to bluff again if he didnt hit. Im not a math guy but if he hit around 12-15 percent of the time one the turn(3 or 4, six outs), but bets 6 dollars atleast 75 percent of the time anyway dont i make more money if i raise the turn? given he will fold if he dont hit and call if he does.
"the only problem with just calling the flop is there are only 4 cards you would be ok to see on the turn. case 8 or a ace, any other card could make his hand. If he has 23, and a 2 or 3 comes on the turn he will not be folding to your raise on the turn."
no if he calls my raise on the turn im done with the hand unless an ace or an eight hits the river. But keep in mind that there are only six cards he would like that could hit the turn , but i knew that he was very likely to bluff again if he didnt hit. Im not a math guy but if he hit around 12-15 percent of the time one the turn(3 or 4, six outs), but bets 6 dollars atleast 75 percent of the time anyway dont i make more money if i raise the turn? given he will fold if he dont hit and call if he does.
stormswa
Legend
Silver Level
k
I dont think your ace high is ahead enough on the turn to make your bet a +ev play. But I do think your ace high is ahead most of the time on the flop so that I think is +Ev.
well if you say you are done with the hand after the turn and you don't hit on the river and he does bluff, by the way why wouldn't he bluff? you have shown weakness the entire hand so I would also fire a third bullet against you. so actually this loses you money in long run but I do think check/raising on the flop is a very strong play. you want to control the hand and by just calling all the way down with a marginal hand you are letting him control size of the pot. You want to give yourself multiple ways to win this hand, either by him folding or by you winning with best hand.
If you bet or check/raise flop most likely the rest of the hand is going to go Check/Check. I don't think this guy will bluff river if he misses and he will miss 70% of the time and you will make profit. By letting him bet you are giving him power of bluffing you off best hand on river which will lose you money in long run. Im very aggressive player and usually control hands the entire hand, I don't even check monsters because that would ruin my image and everyone would know I had a monster if I started check/calling all of usuden.
In Heads up play the most aggressive player usually wins.
I dont think your ace high is ahead enough on the turn to make your bet a +ev play. But I do think your ace high is ahead most of the time on the flop so that I think is +Ev.
well if you say you are done with the hand after the turn and you don't hit on the river and he does bluff, by the way why wouldn't he bluff? you have shown weakness the entire hand so I would also fire a third bullet against you. so actually this loses you money in long run but I do think check/raising on the flop is a very strong play. you want to control the hand and by just calling all the way down with a marginal hand you are letting him control size of the pot. You want to give yourself multiple ways to win this hand, either by him folding or by you winning with best hand.
If you bet or check/raise flop most likely the rest of the hand is going to go Check/Check. I don't think this guy will bluff river if he misses and he will miss 70% of the time and you will make profit. By letting him bet you are giving him power of bluffing you off best hand on river which will lose you money in long run. Im very aggressive player and usually control hands the entire hand, I don't even check monsters because that would ruin my image and everyone would know I had a monster if I started check/calling all of usuden.
In Heads up play the most aggressive player usually wins.
Lafaena
Enthusiast
Silver Level
hu
"I dont think your ace high is ahead enough on the turn to make your bet a +ev play. But I do think your ace high is ahead most of the time on the flop so that I think is +Ev."??????
So what changes? why is it so right to raise flop but not turn? he will probably bet the turn since ive shown weakness on both flop and turn because he is a overly aggressive player. From hes earlier way of play i feel confidendt that hell bet again on the turn again if checked too regardless. action goes like this flop 888 i check and he(as fully expected) bets half a pot(2). i should call with the intetion of check raising the turn when he bets,SO how does my ev change so drasticly, remember HE WILL bet the turn if checked to regardless. what i basically would do is gamble and say:
I give u 1 card if u hit(12.5 percent) u win my reraise(say 14 dollars) if u miss i win your bluff 6.5dollars. To put it another way with the a board of 888 X how often is A5 the best hand heads up? in an unraised pot when your oppenent raises with a high- k-10 and better + all pairs, very often i would think. Of course this changes when people start betting, but i tought that this guy would bet anyway.
PS i know playing aggro is the way to go heads up. That how i generally play but i was goofing around and trying something else here when i saw that my oppentent was close to a maniac.
"I dont think your ace high is ahead enough on the turn to make your bet a +ev play. But I do think your ace high is ahead most of the time on the flop so that I think is +Ev."??????
So what changes? why is it so right to raise flop but not turn? he will probably bet the turn since ive shown weakness on both flop and turn because he is a overly aggressive player. From hes earlier way of play i feel confidendt that hell bet again on the turn again if checked too regardless. action goes like this flop 888 i check and he(as fully expected) bets half a pot(2). i should call with the intetion of check raising the turn when he bets,SO how does my ev change so drasticly, remember HE WILL bet the turn if checked to regardless. what i basically would do is gamble and say:
I give u 1 card if u hit(12.5 percent) u win my reraise(say 14 dollars) if u miss i win your bluff 6.5dollars. To put it another way with the a board of 888 X how often is A5 the best hand heads up? in an unraised pot when your oppenent raises with a high- k-10 and better + all pairs, very often i would think. Of course this changes when people start betting, but i tought that this guy would bet anyway.
PS i know playing aggro is the way to go heads up. That how i generally play but i was goofing around and trying something else here when i saw that my oppentent was close to a maniac.
stormswa
Legend
Silver Level
I figured that question was coming up.
I honestly dont want to go into the percentages of what I think he has, there is a chance you have been behind the entire hand by a small pocket pair. I think maybe 25% of the time he has best hand and the other 12% he caught up. I dont think he would shoot a 2nd barrel into this pot without a made hand or thinks you have a real weak hand.
I think taking it on flop is more profitable because of the time's when he will catch up on turn and you will lose the money you are bluffing with. I dont feel like running the numbers right now but im pretty sure its -ev to give a free card on flop. You have to think your hand is ahead here at least 50% of the time so why give a free card out of position like this? being out of position is terrible in this hand with this board, even a total aggro player here would check behind if they didn't hit. I actually don't mind his play on flop if he is planning on checking behind on turn to get the free card.
now if you are going to check flop in order to lead out on turn that is a little different I actually don't mind that as much. That way you are representing a high pocket even though it is doubtful you have it because you limped out of position preflop.
if you plan on betting out regardless of the turn card I don't mind but if you plan on check/raising the turn I don't like that.
Lafaena
Enthusiast
Silver Level
"well if you say you are done with the hand after the turn and you don't hit on the river and he does bluff, by the way why wouldn't he bluff? you have shown weakness the entire hand so I would also fire a third bullet against you."
he would never have gotten to the river without a hand, as he would think that hes weak tight oppenent would never checkraise him on turn without a hand. Had i check raised the turn in the real hand he would have folded thinking i had a king. Had would never had called the turn with a high, or a lower pocket pair(he woulda raised preflop with em anyway, so its really not that interessting)
"so actually this loses you money in long run but I do think check/raising on the flop is a very strong play."
and check raising the turn agaisnt a player who will bet anything if checked too is not...???
"you want to control the hand and by just calling all the way down with a marginal hand you are letting him control size of the pot".
agreed thats why i shoulda raised the turn
"You want to give yourself multiple ways to win this hand, either by him folding or by you winning with best hand."
i dont agree had i played this hand normally i woulda raised preflop and he prob folded
i wanted this dude to Bluff the turn so i can win a bigger pot, and then i made the mistake of calling and letting him catch up on the river, although i think the fact that he coulda bet big on river on bluff is worse.
he would never have gotten to the river without a hand, as he would think that hes weak tight oppenent would never checkraise him on turn without a hand. Had i check raised the turn in the real hand he would have folded thinking i had a king. Had would never had called the turn with a high, or a lower pocket pair(he woulda raised preflop with em anyway, so its really not that interessting)
"so actually this loses you money in long run but I do think check/raising on the flop is a very strong play."
and check raising the turn agaisnt a player who will bet anything if checked too is not...???
"you want to control the hand and by just calling all the way down with a marginal hand you are letting him control size of the pot".
agreed thats why i shoulda raised the turn
"You want to give yourself multiple ways to win this hand, either by him folding or by you winning with best hand."
i dont agree had i played this hand normally i woulda raised preflop and he prob folded
i wanted this dude to Bluff the turn so i can win a bigger pot, and then i made the mistake of calling and letting him catch up on the river, although i think the fact that he coulda bet big on river on bluff is worse.