Is Harrington correct??? Did I play this the right way???

Ronaldadio

Ronaldadio

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Hi guys!!!

I have been reading a the Harrington books on tourny play.

I am changing the way I play. I do OK but I am trying to win tournys rather than just scrape into the money.

Using his theory, let me know what u think about this hand that put me out of a tourny. I was in about 18th place, paid top 18 and there were 26 left.

Let me know what u think guys :)

PokerStars Game #6645096392: Tournament #33768466, $20+$2 Hold'em No Limit - Level X (400/800) - 2006/10/15 - 16:49:26 (ET) Table '33768466 11' 9-max Seat #5 is the button Seat 1: folan (10520 in chips) Seat 2: gobears05 (9710 in chips) Seat 3: waterboy113 (8889 in chips) Seat 4: ChaosTheory0 (1745 in chips) Seat 5: CourDuSable (3747 in chips) Seat 6: wemil (11290 in chips) Seat 7: ronaldadio (6140 in chips) Seat 8: bizzleburt77 (38160 in chips) Seat 9: k8.c (3320 in chips)
folan: posts the ante 50
gobears05: posts the ante 50
waterboy113: posts the ante 50
ChaosTheory0: posts the ante 50
CourDuSable: posts the ante 50
wemil: posts the ante 50
ronaldadio: posts the ante 50
bizzleburt77: posts the ante 50
k8.c: posts the ante 50
wemil: posts small blind 400
ronaldadio: posts big blind 800
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to ronaldadio [Ks Js]
bizzleburt77: folds
k8.c: folds
folan: folds
gobears05: folds
waterboy113: folds
ChaosTheory0: folds
CourDuSable: folds
wemil: raises 800 to 1600
ronaldadio: calls 800
*** FLOP *** [8s 3s 7h]
wemil: bets 2400
ronaldadio: raises 2090 to 4490 and is all-in
wemil: calls 2090
*** TURN *** [8s 3s 7h] [7d]
crissi_d [observer] said, "FKING OMAHAAAAAAA"
*** RIVER *** [8s 3s 7h 7d] [Tc]
*** SHOW DOWN ***
wemil: shows [5h 5d] (two pair, Sevens and Fives)
ronaldadio: shows [Ks Js] (a pair of Sevens) ronaldadio said, "nh"
wemil collected 12630 from pot
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot 12630 | Rake 0
Board [8s 3s 7h 7d Tc]
Seat 1: folan folded before Flop (didn't bet) Seat 2: gobears05 folded before Flop (didn't bet) Seat 3: waterboy113 folded before Flop (didn't bet) Seat 4: ChaosTheory0 folded before Flop (didn't bet) Seat 5: CourDuSable (button) folded before Flop (didn't bet) Seat 6: wemil (small blind) showed [5h 5d] and won (12630) with two pair, Sevens and Fives Seat 7: ronaldadio (big blind) showed [Ks Js] and lost with a pair of Sevens Seat 8: bizzleburt77 folded before Flop (didn't bet) Seat 9: k8.c folded before Flop (didn't bet)
 
Bombjack

Bombjack

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With two suited overcards, you're favourite in this hand... I think you have to go with it.
 
Egon Towst

Egon Towst

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Sorry, BJ, I don`t agree. Fold to his 2400 raise on the flop.

With that flop, you are about 65 percent to win against any random hand, which would make your push just about correct.

In practice, though, villain hasn`t got a random hand. Unless he`s previously shown that he likes to represent the flop, you have to assume that the flop helped him. I would put him on something like A8, A7 or maybe even an overpair. It`s also possible (though it would be cruelly unlikely) he may have two spades headed by the Ace.

You`re quite likely underdog here. Keep your chips for a better prospect.
 
Bombjack

Bombjack

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Even if he does have A7 or A8, you're still 54% to win, 9 spades, 3 jacks, 3 kings all outs, which is why you should take this chance to double up. You're favourite against any likely hand... a slight underdog (46-54%) to pocket queens but you'll have to start going all-in pre-flop with any passable hand pretty soon, with an M of around 5, and less if you fold, so this is a golden opportunity when you can be fairly sure you're the favourite.
 
ChuckTs

ChuckTs

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Push or fold preflop. You don't want to be messing around and calling raises (regardless how small) with a stack that's <10BBs.
 
Four Dogs

Four Dogs

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I agree with your play Ronald'. I think Harrington would as well. As it turns out, your a 56% to 44% favorite to win, so pushing all in can't have a negative EV. Of course you can't have known that when you pushed, but you're looking for the flush so your odds don't change that much regardless of his hole cards. Who cares if you place 18th? Here's a real chance to get back into the game. Don't let it pass.
 
Ronaldadio

Ronaldadio

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I appreciate what some of u r saying, but

My thoughts were
  • If I called his raise, which he was doing regular, and I had missed the flop, I was out with chips enough to scrape into the money.
  • If I hit the flop, or a draw, I was going all in regardless.
  • If I was out, which I was, I gave it a go when the odds were about 50/ 50 in my estimate.
  • If I was in, I think I would have pushed back into the top 10.
  • He would have called my all in raise pre flop I think. The previous 2 hands I had made a stand when he raised and he backed down. I think this time he would have fired both barrels!!!
I have been playing for less than a year and it`s nice for you guys to support my move. Thank u !!!
 
medeiros13

medeiros13

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My thoughts were
  • If I called his raise, which he was doing regular, and I had missed the flop, I was out with chips enough to scrape into the money.
  • If I hit the flop, or a draw, I was going all in regardless.
  • If I was out, which I was, I gave it a go when the odds were about 50/ 50 in my estimate.
  • If I was in, I think I would have pushed back into the top 10.
  • He would have called my all in raise pre flop I think. The previous 2 hands I had made a stand when he raised and he backed down. I think this time he would have fired both barrels!!!
I have been playing for less than a year and it`s nice for you guys to support my move. Thank u !!!

I think your last bullet is why you go all in preflop. You have no way of knowing whether he may decide to make a stand with his pocket 5's or not. He's got you covered 2:1 on chips..if you were in his shoes and saw an all in reraise, are you calling it with pocket 5's?? I'm not sure I'm ready to do that as the OP with an M currently around 13 or so.

Now by calling and getting into your situation, I think Harrington MAY play it as you did. You're about a coinflip at this point and your M is going to be too low to get much fold equity. The reason I'm not sure he does play it as you did is because the OP is getting aggressive vigor on you by betting out 3X BB. From what I took from his series, he usually endorses you getting aggressive vigor in these situations.
 
Dorkus Malorkus

Dorkus Malorkus

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If I called his raise, which he was doing regular, and I had missed the flop, I was out with chips enough to scrape into the money.

By doing this you will be folding the best hand too often if villain's stealing range is large.

If I hit the flop, or a draw, I was going all in regardless.

This will happen in only about one in three flops.

If I was out, which I was, I gave it a go when the odds were about 50/ 50 in my estimate.

In this example you would have been doing the same thing by pushing preflop (if you can be a little results-oriented, I can be too). The difference is by pushing preflop you gain a huge amount of fold equity that you simply don't have postflop if you call.

Maybe he calls with 55, maybe he doesn't. But if he's stealing often then probably around half of his range are hands that he simply cannot call with. A significant percentage of the other half of his range are hands (the range that he calls with) you're either flipping with or aren't too far behind.
 
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Dingodaddy23

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i push preflop, but as played, that flop is an EAAAAAAAAAAAASY push. sorry u didnt hit
 
Ronaldadio

Ronaldadio

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In this example you would have been doing the same thing by pushing preflop (if you can be a little results-oriented, I can be too). The difference is by pushing preflop you gain a huge amount of fold equity that you simply don't have postflop if you call.

Maybe he calls with 55, maybe he doesn't. But if he's stealing often then probably around half of his range are hands that he simply cannot call with. A significant percentage of the other half of his range are hands (the range that he calls with) you're either flipping with or aren't too far behind.

An area I have looked at relating to the above was as follows, all be it a slightly different holding.

If I was sitting KJs and I push all in, he calls all in. Then I do not have a choice.

On the other hand, if he was sitting with say Ax and he misses the flop, if I then push all in he then has 2 cards to come and he is sitting with nothing, possibly a dead hand, in his eyes.

I can remember a few times when I had say JJ, went all in, called by say AT, and the other guys hits. My thinking after this was if I had flat called, he then missed the flop, is he going all in with me with nothing? (as above) I won`t do that everytime, obviously. But on a few occasions I think "if I had not gone all in pre flop he would never have caught his card on the river"

If, however, and AK or Q hits the flop I can reverse out.

I`m not disagreeing with anyone, just throwing in another point.

Let me have your comments as to wether that is a bad, good, indifferent play :)
 
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