$Freeroll NLHE MTT: CC freeroll: Should I have c-bet/called raise on this flop OOP?

[Propane Goat]

$Freeroll NLHE MTT: CC freeroll: Should I have c-bet/called raise on this flop OOP?

This was in a CC freeroll.

Blinds and antes are 10/50/100.

Hero is UTG with .

Hero ($2286) raises to $350.

All fold to button, villain ($2370) calls $350.

SB/BB both fold.

Flop is .

Hero bets $465.

Villain raises to $930.

Total pot size at this point is $2325.

Would you call or re-raise here without connecting with the board, but with a gutshot straight draw?

If I'm doing this correctly I have 4 outs, which using the rule of 4 gives me 5.25:1 drawing odds. pot odds are 5:1 if I just call, so this is already looking like a lousy situation but I called anyway to see a turn.

Question: I'm not at all sure I can see the river without putting any more money into the hand so should I be using the rule of 2 here instead and looking at the odds of drawing a King on the turn only?

Spoiler

Hero calls for $465.

Turn is .

Hero checks.

Villain bets $1000, hero will have to go all in to call.

Hero folds.

 

[dudemanstan]

That raise on the flop smells like an over pair, trips, or Q's to me. In that particular situation I am folding on the flop. But what do I know. Just my opinion

 

[Michael Paler]

This was in a CC freeroll.

Blinds and antes are 10/50/100.

Hero is UTG with .

Hero ($2286) raises to $350.

All fold to button, villain ($2370) calls $350.

SB/BB both fold.

Flop is .

Hero bets $465.

Villain raises to $930.

Total pot size at this point is $2325.

Would you call or re-raise here without connecting with the board, but with a gutshot straight draw?

If I'm doing this correctly I have 4 outs, which using the rule of 4 gives me 5.25:1 drawing odds. Pot odds are 5:1 if I just call, so this is already looking like a lousy situation but I called anyway to see a turn.

Question: I'm not at all sure I can see the river without putting any more money into the hand so should I be using the rule of 2 here instead and looking at the odds of drawing a King on the turn only?

Spoiler

Hero calls for $465.

Turn is .

Hero checks.

Villain bets $1000, hero will have to go all in to call.

Hero folds.

There is some discrepancy over the use/misuse of the rule of 4. You can check these links out.

http://pokerbankrollblog.com/dont-mi...poker-odds.htm

http://www.thepokerbank.com/strategy.../pot-odds/4-2/

http://www.learn-texas-holdem.com/ti...e-for-odds.htm

The jist of it is not to use the rule of 4 unless all in on the flop for your calcs. If not, you should use the rule of two. Some disagree with a vigor to this.

The first link states, in part;
"The problem is, I’ve recently run in to a lot of players who are completely misusing the rule of four and two to try and justify some pretty bad calls. You really need to be thinking about what your chances are of hitting your draw on the next card because very often, you’re going to be faced with another bet. The rule of four and two was designed for when you’re facing an all in bet on the flop or turn and you have a draw. If you go all in, you’re guaranteed to see all five board cards, but if you and your opponent still have chips behind, it changes the math drastically."

 

[RamdeeBen]

I don't think you need to be 3.5x with a 22bb< stack size. Just min open, 2.5x maximum.

As played fold; this will hit villians range a ton and considering he to is 22bb, him flat calling a 3.5x looks strong. Flatting is the absolute worse option you can do. If you think he's bluffing (doubtful) then shoving is best but at stack sizes, you can't really do much but fold. Who is villian btw?

 

[nax]

If you ask me - fold.
gut shot draw is never a good thing!

 

[Propane Goat]

Thanks for the help everyone, I'm still struggling with laying down hands that I've led out on when somebody pushes back harder on a dangerous flop, so that's why I posted this particular one here.

Michael, I appreciate the links, it makes sense that you can't assume that you will see both turn and river for the price of the post-flop call when it doesn't put you all in.

 

[baudib1]

Preflop sizing creates problems for you this hand. Make it $200-$250

 

[nakure]

It´s difficult to chose but a re-raise it is a good option.

 

[Trimming1]

I agree with just a min-raise here. If you have been playing a TAG game then you still will get the same respect and get to see the flop cheaper. Also I would check blind/checkraise not "c" bet here even if you "hit" the flop. Why? your UTG!

 

[aircasar9876]

raise to open it is far too big. would have made your c bet on the flop a lot less and calling to see the turn a little easier. all in or fold is the only real option

 

[baudib1]

Never check dark.

 

[JusSumguy]

Small bet on the flop and fold to the raise.

-

 

[Trimming1]

I dont agree with that "Never"

Never check dark.

Ih your calling with a smaller pocket pair to an aggresive player with (example) say 44's a check "dark" and your pocket hits for a set. They will call your check raise on the turn. That's why I have done that in live face to face tornement/ cash games with alot of sucsses in getting paid. They don't "see" the smaller set possibility.

 

[Propane Goat]

Thanks for the pointers on bet sizing, I'm used to open freerolls where I'm betting bigger to try and get rid of limpers playing any suited cards and any connectors. Min-raising or close to it does almost nothing in those games to get rid of them and they constantly suck out on me.

I think I'm not paying attention to position as much as I should too.

 

[baudib1]

Ih your calling with a smaller pocket pair to an aggresive player with (example) say 44's a check "dark" and your pocket hits for a set. They will call your check raise on the turn. That's why I have done that in live face to face tornement/ cash games with alot of sucsses in getting paid. They don't "see" the smaller set possibility.

There are so many things wrong in just this little paragraph it's hard to know where to begin:

1. You probably shouldn't be opening small pairs UTG in a tournament.
2. Your scenario just doesn't happen very often and when it does, it has nothing to do with checking dark. You flop a small set vs. an aggressive player = you're usually going to get paid no matter how you play it. How, exactly, does checking dark help you?
3. Checking in the dark is such a godawful play in general and basically can never be justified. If you want to check the flop, check it. If you check dark as the PFR it's even dumber. You're losing a street of value for no gain and giving a free card when you have no need to, again for no gain.

In tournaments you are playing for stacks in such a high % of hands that actually go to a flop that when you're OOP the risk of missing a bet is just ginormous.

 

[MasterOfDisaster]

Who is villian btw?

Who is villain?

 

[Propane Goat]

Who is villain?

Edited out name (I was wondering about that but a couple of veterans asked, so I thought it was ok, my apologies)

 

[JusSumguy]

AugustWest7

As a general practice, we don't out other CC members in hand histories. It can lead to discourse in the family.

-

 

[NvrBlufn]

Have you checked the history yet to see what the villain held? If not, I would definitely get right on that...

Otherwise that raise pre- needs to be smaller (2-2.5x Bb)

OR total shove if you just want to pick up those blinds and move onto a better position / hand. He is unlikely to see a flop with an underpair smaller than Jacks if you go all-in.

If he has AK/AQ oh well at least you didn't have any difficult decisions to make after that.

The hand is misplayed from that position. Villain could call OTB with a weak range just because he has chips and position on you, at that point his actions are justified bc there is no other way his hand figures to win the pot.