Folding the top pair/kicker !?

[Man of straw]

What you do when you hit good flop against loose/aggressive player, but he shows mega aggression? Hold'em or Fold'em?

Here's the example:

pokerstars Game #46488590627: Tournament #288447226, $3.00+$0.30 USD Hold'em No Limit
Level V (30/60) - 2010/07/08 7:36:53 EET [2010/07/08 0:36:53 ET]
Table '288447226 22' 9-max Seat #6 is the button
Seat 1: maselfo (3070 in chips)
Seat 2: bigmike6999 (3240 in chips)
Seat 3: Man of straw (5895 in chips)
Seat 4: william12407 (5330 in chips) is sitting out
Seat 5: tychoon (6705 in chips)
Seat 6: jivemagnet (1155 in chips)
Seat 7: nelsonmojena (6420 in chips)
Seat 8: tsitsilo (12735 in chips)
Seat 9: aphrodite628 (3210 in chips)
nelsonmojena: posts small blind 30
tsitsilo: posts big blind 60
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to Man of straw [Qd Ac]
aphrodite628: folds
maselfo: folds
bigmike6999: folds
Man of straw: raises 180 to 240
william12407: folds
tychoon: folds
jivemagnet: folds
nelsonmojena: calls 210
tsitsilo: calls 180
*** FLOP *** [Qc 3h 5s]
nelsonmojena: checks
tsitsilo: bets 2520
Man of straw said, "ur jokeing, right !"
Man of straw: folds
nelsonmojena: folds
Uncalled bet (2520) returned to tsitsilo
tsitsilo collected 720 from pot
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot 720 | Rake 0
Board [Qc 3h 5s]
Seat 1: maselfo folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 2: bigmike6999 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 3: Man of straw folded on the Flop
Seat 4: william12407 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 5: tychoon folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 6: jivemagnet (button) folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 7: nelsonmojena (small blind) folded on the Flop
Seat 8: tsitsilo (big blind) collected (720)
Seat 9: aphrodite628 folded before Flop (didn't bet)

When the flop came I was thinking "Oh, Im gonna squeeze this bas***d hard"
Well, then he bets this ridiculous amount - 2520, three and half times the pot.
So the dilemma is "fold or shove"
But before making the decision, I must put my opponent on a hand.
What I know about that guy?
-loose calls with marginal hands
-likes to bluff
-overplays his hand almost any time
... in conclusion, his rage is "any two cards"...so I'm good, am I?

And here comes the reason why I folded: Even with 70% or more chance to win the hand I dont want to risk it ged kicked out from that nice loose table, because I can make more profit just staying and playing my game. Yeah, believe me, the table was really loose, whitch is doulble edged knife, but I can take it.

And you know what? Just four deals later my profit came along:

PokerStars Game #46488687252: Tournament #288447226, $3.00+$0.30 USD Hold'em No Limit
Level VI (40/80) - 2010/07/08 7:41:29 EET [2010/07/08 0:41:29 ET]
Table '288447226 22' 9-max Seat #1 is the button
Seat 1: maselfo (2830 in chips)
Seat 2: bigmike6999 (2520 in chips)
Seat 3: Man of straw (5655 in chips)
Seat 4: william12407 (6685 in chips)
Seat 5: tychoon (6705 in chips)
Seat 6: jivemagnet (3000 in chips)
Seat 7: nelsonmojena (8820 in chips)
Seat 8: tsitsilo (11455 in chips)
Seat 9: aphrodite628 (3090 in chips)
bigmike6999: posts small blind 40
Man of straw: posts big blind 80
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to Man of straw [4s 4d]
william12407: folds
tychoon: calls 80
jivemagnet: calls 80
nelsonmojena: calls 80
tsitsilo: calls 80
aphrodite628: folds
maselfo: folds
bigmike6999: calls 40
Man of straw: checks
*** FLOP *** [Tc 4c Ad]
bigmike6999: checks
Man of straw: bets 880
tychoon: folds
jivemagnet: calls 880
nelsonmojena: calls 880
tsitsilo: raises 2880 to 3760
bigmike6999 has timed out
bigmike6999: folds
bigmike6999 is sitting out
Man of straw said, "ahahahha, what is going on !?"
Man of straw said, "you out of your mind !?"
Man of straw: raises 1815 to 5575 and is all-in
jivemagnet: calls 2040 and is all-in
nelsonmojena: calls 4695
tsitsilo: calls 1815
*** TURN *** [Tc 4c Ad] 4♥
nelsonmojena: checks
tsitsilo: checks
*** RIVER *** [Tc 4c Ad 4h] 7♣
nelsonmojena: checks
tsitsilo: bets 1040
nelsonmojena: calls 1040
*** SHOW DOWN ***
tsitsilo: shows [Th Ah] (two pair, Aces and Tens)
nelsonmojena: mucks hand
tsitsilo collected 2080 from side pot-2
Man of straw: shows [4s 4d] (four of a kind, Fours)
Man of straw collected 7965 from side pot-1
jivemagnet: mucks hand
Man of straw collected 12160 from main pot
jivemagnet finished the tournament in 882nd place
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot 22205 Main pot 12160. Side pot-1 7965. Side pot-2 2080. | Rake 0
Board [Tc 4c Ad 4h 7c]
Seat 1: maselfo (button) folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 2: bigmike6999 (small blind) folded on the Flop
Seat 3: Man of straw (big blind) showed [4s 4d] and won (20125) with four of a kind, Fours
Seat 4: william12407 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 5: tychoon folded on the Flop
Seat 6: jivemagnet mucked [Qd Js]
Seat 7: nelsonmojena mucked [6d Ac]
Seat 8: tsitsilo showed [Th Ah] and won (2080) with two pair, Aces and Tens
Seat 9: aphrodite628 folded before Flop (didn't bet)

So, that's my story, now show me in what situation you folded the top pair top kicker and why...

 

[cyclone45]

For me it depends what's on the board...straight or flush draw he** yeh I'll fold top pair, top kicker..even moreso if theres THREE on the flop to a straight or flush.

 

[Worak]

Given the range and reads you put on villain here I'd think the following:

• His calling range preflop is very loose / spewy including but not limited to any Ax (he might 3bet these who knows), Kx, Qx, maybe Jx + any double facecard suited or not.
• Given he is a calling station + is overvalueing his hands - there will be some hands he might jam preflop (AQ+ maybe even AJ+, any pp 55+ (or even 22+).
• Will he play a 2pr / set on this board after flop like that ? I doubt it - he might slowplay or check-raise.
• He won't be pushing you off a draw like that either - or does he think you raise with 64, 42, A2, A4 the way you did ?
• In my experience this could be a made TPWK (Top pair/weak kicker) that doesn't want you to see another card.

Conclusion: Against an opponent like this for me it would be an easy shove - even if you "only" were 70% favourite... in this case I think you might even have had better odds.

PS: Getting it in with 70:30 is +EV most of the time.

 

[Worak]

Another point:

Man of straw said, "ur jokeing, right !"

Man of straw said, "ahahahha, what is going on !?"
Man of straw said, "you out of your mind !?"

There is a saying: "Don't tap the tank"

Even if you are right about what you said (not necessarily in hand #2 where villain had top 2pr on a drawy board) it's never good to tell anybody how bad they are

- keep those thoughts to yourself.

 

[pokerman27]

What you do when you hit good flop against loose/aggressive player, but he shows mega aggression? Hold'em or Fold'em?

Think you answered your own question here- wait for a better spot and stack him.

And you know what? Just four deals later my profit came along

Even though you are likely ahead in the first scenario do you really wanna lose all your chips on TPTK when you have nearly 100 big blinds?

 

[bgomez89]

I'm sorry but that that is some of the dumbest reasoning I've seen on this site and I'm never folding hand1 given the reads and situation. In hand 2 880 into a 480 pot? Lol good luck getting Amy value with that bet in the long run. Also the way you talk makes you sound like douchebag fish who tries to educate people at the table with stupid comments like that.

 

[poker d player]

you might want to re think the first fold u posted. u're prob ahead of most hands against an agressiver loose player like that. you could have pushed in in there.

 

[Man of straw]

Yes I am ahead, but I'm still folding. Is it good or bad, you can decide for yourselves. I'm just sharin' my mind.


bgomez89 - I'm just having fun. I'm not that kind of guy who is gonna laugh over other people's play (at least with no bad feelings)

 

[bonflizubi]

Yes I am ahead, but I'm still folding. Is it good or bad, you can decide for yourselves. I'm just sharin' my mind.


bgomez89 - I'm just having fun. I'm not that kind of guy who is gonna laugh over other people's play (at least with no bad feelings)

OK here comes the hard truth- it aint personal, but people give some way too polite advice on this forum at times and all it does is encourage more poor play.....

If you are ahead and you know it in hand one.. it's an auto ALLIN all day.

Folding when you know you are ahead is burning money... and just bad poker. with the exception of maybe a 51/49 sort of thing on a big payout jump. never ever do that again lol.

He could have easily mistyped the bet. He is probably just an idiot. and sure .. some small % of the time he has you.... but I'm shoving in a $3 tny to that all day long.

Your thinking is completely flawed.. as you will not find a better situation. In fact, assuming the cards were dealt the same, you cost yourself chips in the second hand by not stacking that idiot earlier.

IN the 44 hand, you would have gotten around another 3k chips out of the guy that lost the side pot.


I've said it in other threads in other ways... but there are maybe 4 people on this board good enough to find the proverbial better spot and be able to pass up a 70/30 (and they would never pass on the 70/30.

and as someone else said, bet the flop in the 44 hand.. but that overbet is horrific. bet 1/2 or 2/3 and if someone has a piece of the pot they'll let you know. Also, the table chat is terrible for two reasons.....it lets the other guys know that you obviously have a hand for one. And also you are potentially influencing the actions of the players behind you. In a live tny you'd get a warning at minimum if not a penalty. There were 3 guys to act behind you.

sorry to be harsh.. but this is all very black and white here....

 

[robhimself]

Please don't fold when someone donk bets out huge and you have a good hand. For gods sake he could easily be almost drawing dead with some stupid AJ or 99 kind of hand. There isn't even a reasonable draw out there besides 64. Good players don't make money by waiting for a better spot than 70-30 (which is conservative as hell with a board like this and your read on him), they make money by KNOWING AND CAPITALIZING ON POSITIVE equity SPOTS WHEN THEY COME!

 

[jaded848]

In hand 1, you are behind only to sets, aces, and kings. The shove looks so spewy, you have to call there.

You said the table was loose and you were just waiting to pick your spot. Flopping TPTK on a dry board like that is definitely your spot.

Also, its a $3 tournament, villain will show up with alllll kinds of hands here.

 

[cyclone45]

Okay but what about this... you have AK off... flop comes k 9 3 three hearts that don't help you hand. You have no heart...facing a bet..yeh, I'd fold there.

 

[matt20]

PS: Getting it in with 70:30 is +EV most of the time.

Hahah A+ quote.

 

[jaded848]

Okay but what about this... you have AK off... flop comes k 9 3 three hearts that don't help you hand. You have no heart...facing a bet..yeh, I'd fold there.

I'd call one street, as you are most likely up against a semi-bluff from a player with one heart. If the turn is safe, I think you have to bet big- you can't just assume they flopped the flush, as they could also have KQ, KJ, A9, or the A, Q, J, or even 10 of hearts.

 

[cyclone45]

Better safe than sorry. Plus it depends where ya are, if it's a cash game, tourney...so many variables

 

[Xavier]

Hand 1 should be an insta call imo, or shove.
Calling in order to pick up the rest of his chips on the turn is probably what I'd do as the flop is rainbow and devoid of likely draws i might do, and I'm not really fearing any card on the turn except maybe a king will look icky.

Hes clearly a donk so its ridiculous to muck a hand this strong just becuse u hope to get a better spot where you have him even more crushed.
What if you just don't get such a hand and he just donks his chips off to another player?