Was my fold correct?

[CueMaster71]

Second hand of a $20 9-seater SNG. I've got no knowledge of any other player,and no-one made any move on the first hand, so we're all pretty even with 2000 chips.

UTG raises the blind from 40 to 120.
2nd folds.
3rd raises to 200
4th calls
I'm in fifth with AKs, and I call.
Everyone else folds.
The original raiser re-raises all-in for 2000
3rd place calls.
4th folds.
I decide at least one of them has AA or KK so I fold.
They turn over JJ and 10-10.
The flop is rags, but turn and river bring Ace and King.

I know that was irrelevant, it could easily have brought two more rags, and I'd have been out, and I was fairly happy with my laydown (even though I'd have had 6000 by now).

So, my question is, do you think I did the right thing, or would you have called?

Incidentally, while writing this I've just had my 10-J on a flop of 10-J-4 rainbow cracked by a flush-chaser hitting runner-runner cards and I'm out!!

 

[Styrofoam]

yes, that was the correct action....

when you have two people going at it like that, its likely one of them at least has a big pp. Even if they don't have a big one, that is pretty much 100% one of them as a pair of something, to which you are a dog. Do *NOT* i repeat DO NOT put all your chips in when you have the worst of it...especially EARLY in teh tournament...

You made the right decision imo.

 

[ChuckTs]

I'm in fifth with AKs, and I call.

This should be a raise or fold. You aren't closing the action (ie there's still the original raiser yet to act behind you) by smooth-calling, and are sandwiched between the raiser and the reraiser.

With QQ+ I autopush here, but with AKs, it's kind of a toss-up. In reality I think I push, but maybe folding is the better option. Overvaluing AK in the early stages of SnGs is kind of a leak for me.

 

[zebranky]

just a thought.

its unfortunate that you didn't have a read here, but the decision to call or fold is going to come down to your goal. If you're like me and prefer to "survive" in SNGs - in other words, I'm willing to see the first 2 or 3 eliminations before I even play a hand - then a fold is good. Basically, you let the donks knock each other out.

However - if you're a "win at all costs" type, you call. Here's an opportunity to triple up and dominate the game till the end, and with AK, the odds are right. IF you assume no-one has AA, or KK (whichh your hand makes it even less likely they could have these hands), then you've got about a 48% chance of winning the hand - call it 50%, or 1:2. you have to put in nearly 2000 to win 6000 or so- call it 1:3 odds. That's obviously a call, but it's a one-shot, winner take all deal. As a long term strategy, it works, but most people don't play enough SNGs to justify this one on the odds alone, this early in the game.

 

[mrsnake3695]

I think this decision is closer than we think. Ace-King is a top 3-5 hand, lets not be to quick to fold. One thing people don't account for enough some times is time invested in a tourney. If you spend 2-3 hours on a tourney and then bubble out or just make the money your hourly rate suffers. Here you have an opportunity. If you call and win you will triple up, get rid of 2 players and have an excellent chance of winning. If you call and lose, you get out early, therby not costing you much in time spent. After all, time is money.

Not to mention that sooo many Donks go all-in with any ace, any pair all the way down to 22, any 2 face cards and all kinds of bizzare hands. I think it is well worth the risk, at worst you are most likely in a coin flip with a chance to triple up.

Personally I take this chance.

 

[Styrofoam]

the goal of a tournament is to win it, not neccessarily every hand in it...

There might be times i'd fold QQ if i thought it'd make me get a higher placing in it. I really think his fold was the right decision. he's up against (likely) two made hands already, and needs to hit something to possibly improve (he could be dominated, and AA KK are both out there in which case he needs an improbably 10 J Q) or a flush if he's suited... it could get even worse if the flop comes ragged rainbow but someone hits a set, in which case you're drawing dead now.

I really do believe he made the right choice in laying down his hand...live to fight another day.

 

[CueMaster71]

In hindsight, I'd have been in a great position if I'd called (based on the cards that actually came out).

I think mrsnake summed it up, there are so many people pushing preflop with A7o or 22, that you can't assume a call to an all-in actually means a premium hand. I'm playing $20 SnGs, and the tables are flooded with bad players.

Case in point, I'm playing at the moment, and saw a cheap flop with four other players of J84 rainbow with my A-10. Checks all round, next card is a 7. Again checks all round. Last card is a 9 to fill my straight. I bet, I get raised (he's all in) and I call. He turns over pocket Jacks, which he's cleverly slow-played long enough to let me catch runner runner cards....

Gotta love these players

 

[Styrofoam]

Bad players or not, you're still a dog to 22..and A7 has one of your outs against the lowly pair of 2s. It is still best to get your money in whne you KNOW you have the best of it... not when you think you might. As it stands you were a dog to both of them anyways.

 

[CueMaster71]

I agree Styro, (hence my fold!!) and I'd probably play it again exactly the same, unless I was feeling reckless.

 

[workingdog]

I fold...AK is a great DRAWING hand. I'll race later in the tournament, but not right at the start with that hand. JMO

 

[x-Longshot-x]

Second hand of a $20 9-seater SNG. I've got no knowledge of any other player,and no-one made any move on the first hand, so we're all pretty even with 2000 chips.

UTG raises the blind from 40 to 120.
2nd folds.
3rd raises to 200
4th calls
I'm in fifth with AKs, and I call.
Everyone else folds.
The original raiser re-raises all-in for 2000
3rd place calls.
4th folds.
I decide at least one of them has AA or KK so I fold.
They turn over JJ and 10-10.
The flop is rags, but turn and river bring Ace and King.

I know that was irrelevant, it could easily have brought two more rags, and I'd have been out, and I was fairly happy with my laydown (even though I'd have had 6000 by now).

So, my question is, do you think I did the right thing, or would you have called?

Incidentally, while writing this I've just had my 10-J on a flop of 10-J-4 rainbow cracked by a flush-chaser hitting runner-runner cards and I'm out!!

Fold, unless its a freeroll, inwhich case you get all of your chips in the middle with a gleeful smile!

 

[mrsnake3695]

I still say the advice to fold is wrong here. He is getting 3-1 on his money and most likely not a 3-1 underdog. If both players have pairs you are a toss up to hit a king or ace and beat both of them. If they both have any other card combination not a pair you are a huge favorite. You are only an underdog to AA, KK, which I would just pay off in a donk fest tourney. A more serious tourney with good players would be different and i would consider AA or KK to be more likely than here.

It's certainly OK to be cautious, but I would rather go out first with a strong hand then bubble out after 90 mins of play.

 

[Styrofoam]

he's getting 2:1 on his money...not 3:1. he may not have been that big of a dog in hindsight, but its VERY possible and almost likely that one of the two of them hold AA or KK in which you're a big dog.

 

[joosebuck]

I'm in fifth with AKs, and I call.

you should sense some fireworks about to happen with an UTG raise and then a reraise. you need to push there and try to isolate vs utg or the 2nd raiser or fold. think, "self, if utg shoves and the other guy shoves, can i call?"

 

[x-Longshot-x]

I'm in fifth with AKs, and I call.

you should sense some fireworks about to happen with an UTG raise and then a reraise. you need to push there and try to isolate vs utg or the 2nd raiser or fold. think, "self, if utg shoves and the other guy shoves, can i call?"

Pushing after a raise from UTG and a re-raise? especially since the RR was a min-rr. im calling and mucking if they go all in or im folding, i dont like a push, at best you are at a race with one hand, at worst a race with 2, i think that you need to muck it here and outplay them in future hands

 

[joosebuck]

AT BEST YOU ISOLATE AND/OR GET INFORMATION. AT WORST YOU CALL ANOTHER BET AND THEN ANOTHER RAISE AND THEN FOLD AND LOSE A TON OF CHIPS BRAH,.

 

[joosebuck]

(well actually at best they both fold but we both know that doesnt happen)

how many times do you see donks push KQ KJ AQ AJ from ep?? and reraise with it?? i think a push here is not a discountable option. either fold or raise. calling gives you 0 more information.

 

[zebranky]

Pushing after a raise from UTG and a re-raise? especially since the RR was a min-rr. im calling and mucking if they go all in or im folding, i dont like a push, at best you are at a race with one hand, at worst a race with 2, i think that you need to muck it here and outplay them in future hands

But if you have AK, racing with 2 hands is better than racing with one, right?

The whole point here is that if you don't put these guys on AA or KK, you're getting great odds to call. You get a 46% chance to triple your chips - thats good odds. It is an all or nothing play, though, so it really depends on how you're playing your SNG game. I know most players are willing to take this chance (even If I'm not). And its much better to race at the beginning than the end - both because you're more likely to be racing against donk hands, and because you've got less time invested in the game.

 

[mrsnake3695]

Glad to see someone else is making sense and thinking like me, lol.

 

[zebranky]

hmmm....

Glad to see someone else is making sense and thinking like me, lol.

I don't think I would make the call myself, but I certainly can't argue with the logic of making the call. Even assuming that you're wrong 1 in 3 times and someone does have AA or KK, you're still coming out even - simple math below.

6 attempts - you make your pair 3 times, miss 3 times.
Of the 3 you make, someone has AA or KK once - so only two pay off.
So twice you win 3 buy-in stacks (6 total), and four you don't (6 buy-ins, total). Plus you've saved a whole lot of time, and you're a massive chip leader when you do hit.


and can anyone here say that every 3rd all-in battle they see involves AA or KK? I'd say 1 in 10, at best.

 

[joosebuck]

there are so many other holdings that i've seen people push with on the first hand. KQ KJ QJ AQ AK AJ A10 AA KK QQ JJ 1010 99 etc. And only two of those really have you hurting.

 

[hott_estelle]

I think the most important part of your decision is your outlook on how you want to play the SNG. A lot of people try to accumulate chips early on, and will push all in or attempt to play agressive (sometimes quite stupid, not all the time, but sometimes a bit too agressive can be ones downfall) poker. But I think in your situation I would have folded as well, but if you are the agressive player then possibly you wanted to gain a big chip stack, then the rewards may have outweighed the risks involved. Personally, folding was the correct move.