Flopped set, possible straight on turn - This one I DO want criticism on

Emperor IX

Emperor IX

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pokerstars Game #10790262420: Tournament #54691026, $1.00+$0.20 Hold'em No Limit - Level I (10/20) - 2007/07/05 - 22:25:42 (ET)
Table '54691026 2' 9-max Seat #5 is the button
Seat 1: Neffi420 (1500 in chips)
Seat 2: knitmer (1480 in chips)
Seat 3: patetsonia (1970 in chips)
Seat 4: WinNowAAAA (1470 in chips)
Seat 5: Fightin40 (1400 in chips)
Seat 6: Arrogant13 (1480 in chips)
Seat 7: Emperor IX (1500 in chips)
Seat 8: DJP9,10 (940 in chips)
Seat 9: PT's daddy (1760 in chips)
Arrogant13: posts small blind 10
Emperor IX: posts big blind 20
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to Emperor IX [7c 7d]
DJP9,10: calls 20
PT's daddy: folds
Neffi420: calls 20
knitmer: folds
patetsonia: calls 20
WinNowAAAA: calls 20
Fightin40: calls 20
Arrogant13: calls 10
Emperor IX: raises 60 to 80
DJP9,10: calls 60
Neffi420: folds
patetsonia: folds
WinNowAAAA: calls 60
Fightin40: calls 60
Arrogant13: calls 60
*** FLOP *** [5s 2c 7s]
Arrogant13: checks
Emperor IX: bets 300
DJP9,10: calls 300
WinNowAAAA: folds
Fightin40: folds
Arrogant13: calls 300
*** TURN *** [5s 2c 7s] [4h]
Arrogant13: bets 1100 and is all-in
Emperor IX: ??

My question is should I be afraid of the straight?

And I know someone is going to mention it so I'll say it now

I KNOW I DIDN'T RAISE ENOUGH PF

Also, assume no reads, because I've not been paying attention. Notice that this is REALLY early in the tournament (Probably the 4th/5th hand, somewhere around there) and I've not been paying attention.

Results I'll post after a few opinions are up.

I personally don't think I got anything to worry about, but I just want to make sure.
 
DaveE

DaveE

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At these stakes it's really hard to say. 3,6 or 6,8 are a posibility but you can't be afraid of that, you have to call. Most likely you're facing 2 pair or a flush draw. You hit top set. Call!!!!!!
 
M

mischman

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You can never fold this. There are 2 hands that beat you, out of all the possible hands, 2 isnt a lot. Even if he has one of those 2 you still have a few outs to catch up. Im pretty confident
3-6 isnt n the pot, but who knows. But NO, DONT FOLD! You are ahead more than your behind. Also, your PF raise was fine.
 
Effexor

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There are 6 people in the hand behind you, why raise at all??? So you can give someone a chance to reraise you?

Just call PF, hope to hit a set.

Call the turn bet.
 
Stick66

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Pre-flop: Either make a strong, pot-sized or more bet to pare down the field OR just check. The weak raise you made in comparison to the pot just made things juicier for everyone.

Flop: With top set and so many people in, I insta-push. A straight is the least likely hand you would be concerned with. You're probably looking at draws, overpairs and overcards. You have the best hand right now. As played, the UTG check/call should concern you.

Turn: Now the big concern is A3. 63 & 86 are not so much, but donks at this level love to play suited rags for a cheap price or good odds. However, I am inclined to go with 2 pair or a set of 4's. A big pair could be a semi-strong possiblilty, also. Since the straight is still the least likely holding, I call the push and take the medicine.
 
J

joeeagles

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First of all I'm not going to say that you didn't raise enough PF, because at those stakes it really doesn't matter, if you raise to 200 it still is at least a 3/4-way pot lol. Just kidding (not really though).

Ok, seriously now, you're OOP in this hand so I think it'd be fine to just check from the BB. Besides the fact a raise usually doesn't get it done, raising it to 80 is just a pot sweetener, so nevermind raising there just call and play for set value next time. I'm sure you know all this so I'm surprised you raised it to 80, I'd think you knew better.

Anyway, to answer your other question which is the reason you posted this hand, I think you have to be afraid of the straight but that doesn't mean you can fold this. Pot is too big and there is a chance he's trying to steal it or maybe he has 2 pair or a smaller set or a flush draw played horribly. In his position everything is possible because he's the SB, so he had odds PF to call with almost ATC. A3 and 86 are also a straight there, so there is a total of 3 ways to make 1. He must have something because he called your 300 flop bet, but I think chances are decent its not a straight because why would he shove and not check/shove vs 2 opponents trying to commit 1 of you 2? Then again, perhaps he's a donk that doesn't realize how to play a monster. In conlusion, ANYTHING IS POSSIBLE HERE.

If he does have it, pot is 2440 and you need to put 1100, so if your hand needs to improve you're not getting the right odds, plus there is another player left to act. All things considered I would call this w/o a blink, but I have to admit that I'm terrible at folding sets unless the evidence to do so is overwhelming, so I'd like to see what others think. Also, don't forget to post results, I'm curious now.
 
arkadiy

arkadiy

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$5 says he won this hand :D

Btw, I say you have no choice but to call. If you are folding those odds, then the only cards you're playing are AA and KK.
 
Emperor IX

Emperor IX

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I have a very irrational fear of the nuts when I hold the near nuts...

Emperor IX: raises 20 to 1120 and is all-in
DJP9,10: calls 560 and is all-in
*** RIVER *** [5s 2c 7s 4h] [9s]
*** SHOW DOWN ***
Arrogant13: shows [4c 5d] (two pair, Fives and Fours)
Emperor IX: shows [7c 7d] (three of a kind, Sevens)
Emperor IX collected 1080 from side pot
DJP9,10: shows [3c 2d] (a pair of Deuces)
Arrogant13 is sitting out
Emperor IX collected 3020 from main pot
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot 4100 Main pot 3020. Side pot 1080. | Rake 0
Board [5s 2c 7s 4h 9s]
Seat 1: Neffi420 folded before Flop
Seat 2: knitmer folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 3: patetsonia folded before Flop
Seat 4: WinNowAAAA folded on the Flop
Seat 5: Fightin40 (button) folded on the Flop
Seat 6: Arrogant13 (small blind) showed [4c 5d] and lost with two pair, Fives and Fours
Seat 7: Emperor IX (big blind) showed [7c 7d] and won (4100) with three of a kind, Sevens
Seat 8: DJP9,10 showed [3c 2d] and lost with a pair of Deuces
Seat 9: PT's daddy folded before Flop (didn't bet)

...but it doesn't stop me caling with this. That would just be stupid :D
 
robwhufc

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Flop: With top set and so many people in, I insta-push. A straight is the least likely hand you would be concerned with. You're probably looking at draws, overpairs and overcards. You have the best hand right now. As played, the UTG check/call should concern you.
NO, NO, NO!!!!!! You'd bet all of your 1420 remaining chips and be happy with picking up the 440 pot? The 300 bet was perfect, his opponents would be making a mistake to call (which they did) - he picked up 2,240 more chips than you would have done here for taking a small chance that he would have been outdrawn (and if spade / draw filler came opponents would still need to have the required hole cards, and even then you'll have outs on the river to hit your full / quads. And if there's an overpair, thats 2 outs. And Over cards? they are drawing dead because runner runner set gives you full house).

It is a monumental mistake not to win big when you hit big hands. How much risk are you going to have to take later in the game to win the 2,240 you've been too scared to win here? A hell of a lot more than the risk you are facing of being outdrawn here.
 
drgilbert4

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I know you are probably head shy because of the bad beats you have likely witnessed playing on PokerStars, but you have got to love flopping trips against a flush possible flush draw and a long shot straight draw. You played this hand very well!!
 
Emperor IX

Emperor IX

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I know you are probably head shy because of the bad beats you have likely witnessed playing on PokerStars

Well, you ever see the movie Rounders, in the beginning when KGB had the Aces full? Well that was me, only instead of 9's they were Q's, and instead of my opponent having A9, he had pocket Q's, so my overfull was beaten by quads. This happened at a live game, luckily It was only a $70 pot that I had about $30 invested into, and I was up $850 for the night. I left right after that hand.

Since then, I've had an irrational fear of the absolute nuts when I hold the 2nd nuts.
 
drgilbert4

drgilbert4

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I feel your pain!! Been there a few times.. In the long run you will be ahead.. no adjustment necessary.
 
J

joeeagles

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The 300 bet was perfect, his opponents would be making a mistake to call (which they did) - he picked up 2,240 more chips for taking a small chance that he would have been outdrawn (and if spade / draw filler came opponents would still need to have the required hole cards, and even then you'll have outs on the river to hit your full / quads. It is a monumental mistake not to win big when you hit big hands. How much risk are you going to have to take later in the game to win the 2,240 you've been too scared to win here? A hell of a lot more than the risk you are facing of being outdrawn here.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

This is something everyone here should write down and keep reading during every session, cash game or tourney as well. I think the biggest problem people have is being excessively worried about getting sucked out when they hit a big hand on the flop. While this will occur every now and then, as a general rule, to quote Rob, "it is a monumental mistake" when you play your strong hands in a fashion (like shoving) that doesn't allow you to get value for them.

This was posted by Aliengenius in another thread: "It is a fundamental truth of poker that you make your money when your opponents make mistakes".

This should also be written down and read every 5 minutes during your session. These concepts need to be applied in order to be successful in this game. When you hit a strong hand your goal is to bet enough to induce opponents to make a mistake by calling, not heavily overbet or shove to make them fold because you worry about getting sucked out. As simple as these principles are some people really struggle to properly use them, and the more you fail to do so, the longer it'll take you to play winning poker.
 
Last edited:
Stick66

Stick66

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It is a monumental mistake not to win big when you hit big hands. How much risk are you going to have to take later in the game to win the 2,240 you've been too scared to win here? A hell of a lot more than the risk you are facing of being outdrawn here.

This is something everyone here should write down and keep reading during every session, cash game or tourney as well. I think the biggest problem people have is being excessively worried about getting sucked out when they hit a big hand on the flop. While this will occur every now and then, as a general rule, to quote Rob, "it is a monumental mistake" when you play your strong hands in a fashion (like shoving) that doesn't allow you to get value for them.

This was posted by Aliengenius in another thread: "It is a fundamental truth of poker that you make your money when your opponents make mistakes".

This should also be written down and read every 5 minutes during your session. These concepts need to be applied in order to be successful in this game. When you hit a strong hand your goal is to bet enough to induce opponents to make a mistake by calling, not heavily overbet or shove to make them fold because you worry about getting sucked out. As simple as these principles are some people really struggle to properly use them, and the more you fail to do so, the longer it'll take you to play winning poker.
Wow! I was ready to tell you guys that a set loses value in a 3-way pot versus heads-up on a board like this, so you were both cracked. BUT I just ran the hand though my odds calculator. On this flop, the set of 7's is still an 86% favorite VS 2 random hands and is still 78% on the turn.

With the straight and flush draws on this board, I was under the impression that 2 opponents put a big dent in the odds compared to 1 opponent, but I guess I was pretty wrong. Sorry, I suck.
 
J

joeeagles

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Wow! I was ready to tell you guys that a set loses value in a 3-way pot versus heads-up on a board like this, so you were both cracked. BUT I just ran the hand though my odds calculator. On this flop, the set of 7's is still an 86% favorite VS 2 random hands and is still 78% on the turn.

With the straight and flush draws on this board, I was under the impression that 2 opponents put a big dent in the odds compared to 1 opponent, but I guess I was pretty wrong. Sorry, I suck.


Nah, you don't suck. The truth is that I understand, having been sucked out many times myself, how hard it is to play with enough discipline to get value out of big hands w/o worrying about the chasers that get lucky and catch. I just wanted to point out that its wrong to overbet to make them fold, and if you make a habit of this it will haunt you worse than the bad beats.

I also understand that you thought the set loses value, no problem, you don't suck.
 
ChuckTs

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Pre-flop: Either make a strong, pot-sized or more bet to pare down the field OR just check. The weak raise you made in comparison to the pot just made things juicier for everyone.

Agreed. I much prefer a check, though.

NO, NO, NO!!!!!! You'd bet all of your 1420 remaining chips and be happy with picking up the 440 pot? The 300 bet was perfect, his opponents would be making a mistake to call (which they did) - he picked up 2,240 more chips than you would have done here for taking a small chance that he would have been outdrawn (and if spade / draw filler came opponents would still need to have the required hole cards, and even then you'll have outs on the river to hit your full / quads. And if there's an overpair, thats 2 outs. And Over cards? they are drawing dead because runner runner set gives you full house).

It is a monumental mistake not to win big when you hit big hands. How much risk are you going to have to take later in the game to win the 2,240 you've been too scared to win here? A hell of a lot more than the risk you are facing of being outdrawn here.

Agreed...pushing here is kind of ridiculous considering the texture of the board. If we're sitting on a set on say a 7JQ flop, well that would be much different since it would be more likely that someone would pay you off with top pair or a draw or whatever.

Pushing so much into such a small pot is just going to scare people out; I think your 300 chip bet was fine.

Considering folding this hand is just crazy. A straight is certainly possible, but not likely enough to ever seriously consider folding our top set. I call this approximately %100 of the time. Two-pair/overpair/smaller set/top pair are too likely vs the odd straight. Call call call.
 
dj11

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Clearly interesting but for different reasons. From a purely objective point, you are clearly ahead. From the subjective point, well this is where players are made.

Villain has a hand worth betting, and has position on you, and you must assume he is aware of those facts. He can bet knowing you have to deal with that straight draw.

I don't know if there is a way to 'work' on this aspect of anyones game. It's one of those damned if you do, damned if you don't situations that make the game so fun, call, fold, win or lose.

What can you take away from this hand knowledge wise?
 
ChuckTs

ChuckTs

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Clearly interesting but for different reasons. From a purely objective point, you are clearly ahead. From the subjective point, well this is where players are made.

How's that? By clicking the call button?
 
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