Final Table. Play to win or take the cash?

[young hova]

I'll post the results soon. Payout structure based on prize pool split:

1. $3,851.43 (this value is about $1000 less based on prize pool split)
2. $3,400.74
3. $2,320.78
4. $ 1,732.05
5 $1050
6. $787.50
7 $612.50


****Note the Stack sizes of the other players****




** Hand # 2283138374 starting - 2008-11-24 21:35:50
** $17.5k GUARANTEE[2297614]:Table 8 [Multi Table Hold 'em] (16000.00|32000.00 NL - MTT) real money

Retardovic sitting in seat 1 with 521419.94
theHomer sitting in seat 5 with 69732.09
Jokinho sitting in seat 6 with 266390.05[Dealer]
young_gung sitting in seat 7 with 179294.00
Motoko sitting in seat 8 with 185366.00
MacArnulf sitting in seat 9 with 91168.00
turkens75 sitting in seat 10 with 56629.92
young_gung ante'd - 1200.00
Motoko ante'd - 1200.00
MacArnulf ante'd - 1200.00
turkens75 ante'd - 1200.00
Retardovic ante'd - 1200.00
theHomer ante'd - 1200.00
Jokinho ante'd - 1200.00
young_gung posted the small blind - 8000.00
Motoko posted the big blind - 16000.00

** Dealing cards to young_gung: 10d, 10h
MacArnulf folded
turkens75 folded
Retardovic folded
theHomer folded
Jokinho raised to 45000.00


What to do?

 

[slycbnew]

I'm thinking his range includes K or A with low kickers, as well as all pairs and possibly high sc, - this assumes it's not an outright steal attempt which would make the range even bigger - against this range, you're a solid favorite (in spite of being a dog to JJ+) - unless you have a specific read on villain that invalidates that range, shove

 

[i desire love]

I dont think u need to shove here. Even if you call and the flop brings overs or anything u dont like you can still fold and be in a good position to move up the money ladder/win. No need to risk your whole stack on 1010 IMO.

 

[nolimitjunki]

Since he is on the button. It is very likely that he could be trying to steal because he has both SB and BB covered. I would say that a determining factor would be a profile on this player. Is he tight? Is he a maniac? Have you seen him bluff before? If you cant answer any of these. I would say just fold. Wait for a little bit better spot. Where you can be doing the raising. Nothing Too fishy about the bet. 2.8 BB?? something like that. Pretty standard. an all in re-raise is not ruled out but not very smart without any history on the player. This is a spot where "feel" comes into play.

 

[young hova]

my fault for the delay on the results was ot.

Yeah desire I think I couldve called here, but at the same time I don't think this was a call situation, I'm thinking fold or raise. Its a tough one tho, My M is just about 6 here. Calling 37,000 more yeah I guess I did have enough to do that but imo in this situation to any strong flop bet with cards higher than 10 I pretty much have to fold IMO. If I just flat call and the board comes low I would want to check raise a c-bet, but if I flat call and the board comes low that looks damn near so strong a c-bet is not really guaranteed here, so I'd be stuck on whether I should push on the flop or risk giving him a free turn card trying to check raise him all in on a c-bet. I hadn't really played with him post flop like that so reads on bets on a flop of jack or higher would be hard to determine whether he has it or not. The main pro from calling is that I still guarantee my self more money when worst comes to worst. Which is what you were trying to say which I totally agree with, at the same time in this same argument, if I wanna do this why not fold and use those chips that I wouldve called with to be the aggressor?



I did have a read on the guy and he was relatively aggressive when folded around to him on the Final table in late position or even in the small blind. SO with that being said I pushed. Sly your read was pretty much on point here.

** Dealing cards to young_gung: 10d, 10h
MacArnulf folded
turkens75 folded
Retardovic folded
theHomer folded
Jokinho raised to 45000.00
young_gung went all-in - 170094.00
Motoko folded
Jokinho called - 178094.00
Jokinho shows: Ac, Jc

** Dealing the flop: Qh, Qd, Ks

** Dealing the turn: 5d

** Dealing the river: As
Jokinho wins 380588.00 from the main pot


I Raised thinking I could make him fold. I really wanted a fold.

Within 15 hands after that 2 of the short stacks went out and a prize pool split was immediately submitted by the chip leader which was accepted by all players. Villain "jokinho" took down that second place money for $3400, due to the split.

Don't regret anything I did really, I do think about having folded or just called, but knowing that I was ahead preflop I wanted to go for the gusto since the opportunity presented itself

 

[arahel_jazz]

I would have cold called pre-flop and then shut it down after seeing that flop. Don't think I would have shoved here thinking I was going to get a fold. Big stack at final table nearly never folds to that kind of a bet.

 

[rakbarak]

i paid $37000 to see the flop and hope to see a 10. If not, i chek/fold.

No bluff here

 

[mrsnake3695]

There's a huge jump in money here between 7th and 4th place money and I certainly understand wanting to win the tourney I don't see the point in getting into a coin flip for all our chips here. With 2 shorter stacks in the game the chances of finishing at least 4th are good. villan is only going to call with a hand that either beats you or flips with you and will most likely call with any hand that flips or is ahead. So if you shove villan either folds a hand you are a head on or calls with a hand you are behind or flipping against. Either way villan isn't making a mistake and you would be if called since you don't want to be racing in this situation.

So to me the 2 choices are call and see the flop or fold. I know folding 10's seems weak but 10's are so very vulnerable against most of villans likely holdings. Since the odds of hitting a 10 is big and the odds of at least one over card hitting the flop, I fold and wait for a stronger hand or better situation and hope the 2 small stacks go out soon moving you way up in the money. Once you do that then flipping won't be has bad a move.

 

[The Shrog]

since your original question deals with winning the tournament or moving up in pay, I think this needs to be answered first. If these final tables are common for you and you're trying to take it down, I don't mind the shove. On the other hand, if you're looking to move up a few spots, flatting preflop is probably your move. It all depends on what your goal is for this FT.

 

[p0cketAz]

you should have flat called.... once the flop comes put a feeler bet out there... after that flop he doesnt continue with the hand

 

[i desire love]

I still dont get the push here. The better youll get is a coinflip. Your 4th in chips theres really NO need to risk your tourny on 1010.But i guess it's internet poker..

 

[i desire love]

i paid $37000 to see the flop and hope to see a 10. If not, i chek/fold.

No bluff here

lol there's no bluff situation here buddy.If he pushes preflop or makes a decent bet on the flop its not a bluff...

 

[scragbag]

In answer to your question. I had this same situation (disregarding the hands). A cash in the place I was would increase my BR by 50%. I ended up going down that route an bustin out by makin an idiotic play. After, I was pretty gutted with myself because I knew I should have come higher but I had this mentality of "Oh I'm taught to play to win". I think it's all relative as to how much the cash is going to affect your roll. If it's just for glory and the cash isn't going to be too much to you, well, Go For Glory

 

[iToldYouSoo]

i reckon a flat call would of been a better move, see what the flop brings, see how he plays it (taking into consideration how he's played bfor) then make your decision from there

 

[young hova]

you should have flat called.... once the flop comes put a feeler bet out there... after that flop he doesnt continue with the hand

Hindsight is 20/20 so I think its easy to say that knowing what he has. a Feeler bet is not necessarily going to make him fold and it pot commits myself if I do that if he comes over top, than I wouldnt know what to do. I think I'd be better off doing an all out stop-n-go if I was going to do that (call the raise, shove the flop).

Its 2 things about this, I was kind on the tip shrog said, I was trying to double up and win, but at the same time the argument for more money is good. Also remember I also shoved because the dude that raised was super loose, he actually had something this time, but he was raising a ton at this point, its very likely he couldve had any two cards here.

I probably shouldve flat called from a "getting my chips in with the best percentage" standpoint, because I do still have more chips than the smaller stacks, if the flop doesn't come to my liking. Just don't forget at this point, the way the blinds are set up, no one is really seeing flops unless it is checked around.

I definitely agree that folding and waiting for a later time to flip when stacks have went out is a great Idea too though. I don't think this particular villain is only going to call with a hand that beats me or flips with me tho. I'm have a strong hunch that he would call with 66s and up which I would have crushed.

 

[viking999]

I hate calling here. It's about 1/5 of your stack and you're out of position after the flop. There's almost always one overcard to TT, so do you bet or call an all-in? Because you're out of position, he's not going to pay you off when you're good and you're often going broke when he has you beat. I will always shove here. He's going to be getting about 2:1 to call, so he's going to call with several hands that are way behind, including underpairs and weaker aces. Plus, if he's totally stealing he may fold, because it's for about 2/3 of his stack and the odds are questionable.

Regarding moving up in the money, it definitely depends how big your bankroll is. If one step up in the cash is at least 25% of your bankroll, then I think it's ok to play it safe. In this payout structure, it really pays off to finish at least 4th place. Since you're 4th in chips, you can't just sit on your ass and get 4th. This is a really good spot, so I'd shove unless maybe the extra $175-ish were at least 25% of my bankroll WITH my guaranteed money included. It's not even close here. If there were 5 players left, it would make more sense to play it safe, because the step up is about 70% of your currently guaranteed money, it may well be a big enough jump to play it safe.

Doesn't really apply to me, because I'd probably go for the win no matter what. It's so much an easier policy. I don't want to have to add the additional concern of the value of moving up in the money to my decision making.

 

[pokerking123]

i agree to what most people said, it should of been a flat call...that way you would have a chance to fold on the flop since you didnt hit it. THat way youll stil be in the tourney, and could of finished higher. With 1010, you would find your self facing overcards or even a over pair

 

[pinaq]

I think much would depend on my read on my opponent, and would actually, though I might be alone with that opinion, consider calling and then check-folding if I miss the set, overcards, especially As, are dealt and he bets. He has a relatively large stack so shoving would probably result in a coin flip facing A-K or, at worst, a larger pair. Of course he could a smaller pair, but I think that chance is considerably small and not worth playing. So calling or folding, depending on my current feeling.

 

[left52side]

I would call here,see a flop hope for a set,then get out of the way,you have enough chips to at least bump up a few spots,no need to shove right now.

 

[FramCire]

i paid $37000 to see the flop and hope to see a 10. If not, i chek/fold.

No bluff here

I assume undercards would warrant a bet by you???

If you call a raise in hopes of seeing 1 or 2 cards flop...... not solid poker.

I would have called the bet. Aggressive or not, 10 10 has too many hands that are bingo or worse. On the flop, I would have put out 1/2 bet to see where the other guy was and then shut it down if he called.

However, I dont blame you for pushing. Sorry about the river.

 

[dqvpa]

i prolly would've reraise all in if you weren't going against the chip leader. but i agree with most everyone here. call, feeler bet. check/fold down.

 

[baudib1]

I don't think there's anything wrong with what you did. You got it in ahead and were one card away from having a nice stack.

This is a dilemma to me, too, when you have a medium pair and figure to be best, but pushing is unlikely to get the loose big stack to fold. I like a stop and go as well. Even though that's an ugly flop for you and he probably calls with his gutshot (not realizing T would be a death card for him), you have more of a chance to take it down on the flop than preflop. Flat-calling is really bad here imo.

 

[young hova]

thanks for the analysis all, now I'm about to make an AK HA post. Check it out if you get a chance

 

[kcirjr]

I believe you have to reraise all your chips. From what the description is it looks like a typical button raise. Even if it is not it most likely isnt that big of a hand and can easily be 88 or 99 which would be perfect for you. You have to take chances in tourneys this is just one of them. TIming is everything and a lil luck doesnt hurt either