Collusion or Bad Form?

[Cowboy8112]

Was the raiser stealing alot of pots on the bubble? He may have intended to raise regardless of the shortstack's shove. Also, He may have not noticed about the shortstack's shove.
However, you should probably have called anyway. KQ is a decent hand, even moreso against stealers. Besides, if this was the absolute bubble, unless the shortstack wins the main while you lose the side, she goes out before you do.

By the way, this would qualify as soft play if he did it intentionally, not collusion.

How did you do anyway?

KQ off is not a decent hand against a 1000 chip bet with one player all in. He made the right play by laying down. I would have expected to see pocket paints or better at the end of the hand.

 

[Cowboy8112]

Seems like a pretty solid play to me. $1050 in the pot preflop, and probably two live cards. The $999 bet ensures that he will win at least the Big Blind, making it a freeroll on the rest of the pot.

He bought himself a 5 to 1 shot at a big pot for no money down.

WHAT!!!????

you are not getting 5 to 1 when its all your chips in the pot!

 

[teeko]

Smart move

I would proly do the same. If ur on the bubble they try to get u allin and check it down. THey both make the money. If u triple up they both have chips left. Dont think it was collusion but a way to better there odds of cashing. NEver really can tell tho

 

[califantasy]

WHAT!!!????

you are not getting 5 to 1 when its all your chips in the pot!

Right he was actually getting 1050 to 0, since he had no chips committed. 5 to 1 was his chance of [3s 2d] beating [10c 10d] and winning the pot against his opponent. He was probably hoping that his opponent held a hand like [Ah Jh] which would have made him only a 2 to 1 dog. But either way, if the blinds fold like they are supposed to, its still 1050 to 0, which is better than any odds he could lay.

Chips weren't at risk once he was heads up. The raise was a move to isolate, so he could freeroll for $1050. Out of his $999 bet (not even close to all his chips) he won the sidepot of $400 (guaranteed when the blinds fold), and had $599 returned.

It could have been disastrous if someone in the blind woke up with a huge hand--but with a 5 handed table and one fold in front, he only had to worry about 2 seats having those big hands. The raise also wasn't that big in relation to the big-blinds, so its not like he was risking a lot to steal. If you have never tried a pure-steal from the button for fear that the blinds will hold pocket aces and call, you are missing a great opportunity.

Reasons that you can expect to not be called in this position:
+There are only two players to act, and they are both in the blind.
+The small blind is short-stacked, and not likely to want to commit his entire stack on anything less than a premium hand.
+The big blind is the big stack at the table, and less likely to want to trade places with the second biggest stack at the table with anything less than a premium hand.
+Most players think that anyone who raises to isolate an all-in must have a monster, since its 'bad tourney play' to not try to eliminate the player.
+Players usually think that since there is an all-in, your hand will have to be shown, and because of that, there is no way you would try a pure steal in this spot.
+The raise is only 2.5x--if the BB or SB wake up with a big hand, it should be easy to get away from a reraise.

I think the best part of this hand, is that it was guaranteed to be shown, which means that you are going to have an incredibly loose reputation when it plays out, win or lose.

 

[FatBasset]

Right he was actually getting 1050 to 0, since he had no chips committed. 5 to 1 was his chance of [3s 2d] beating [10c 10d] and winning the pot against his opponent. He was probably hoping that his opponent held a hand like [Ah Jh] which would have made him only a 2 to 1 dog. But either way, if the blinds fold like they are supposed to, its still 1050 to 0, which is better than any odds he could lay.

Chips weren't at risk once he was heads up. The raise was a move to isolate, so he could freeroll for $1050. Out of his $999 bet (not even close to all his chips) he won the sidepot of $400 (guaranteed when the blinds fold), and had $599 returned.

It could have been disastrous if someone in the blind woke up with a huge hand--but with a 5 handed table and one fold in front, he only had to worry about 2 seats having those big hands. The raise also wasn't that big in relation to the big-blinds, so its not like he was risking a lot to steal. If you have never tried a pure-steal from the button for fear that the blinds will hold pocket aces and call, you are missing a great opportunity.

Reasons that you can expect to not be called in this position:
+There are only two players to act, and they are both in the blind.
+The small blind is short-stacked, and not likely to want to commit his entire stack on anything less than a premium hand.
+The big blind is the big stack at the table, and less likely to want to trade places with the second biggest stack at the table with anything less than a premium hand.
+Most players think that anyone who raises to isolate an all-in must have a monster, since its 'bad tourney play' to not try to eliminate the player.
+Players usually think that since there is an all-in, your hand will have to be shown, and because of that, there is no way you would try a pure steal in this spot.
+The raise is only 2.5x--if the BB or SB wake up with a big hand, it should be easy to get away from a reraise.

I think the best part of this hand, is that it was guaranteed to be shown, which means that you are going to have an incredibly loose reputation when it plays out, win or lose.

Actually, if you look at it from another perspective all these factors you have set forth show how he can insure his friend is up against a hand she is at least a significant favorite if not dominating advantage without risking any chips.

 

[califantasy]

Actually, if you look at it from another perspective all these factors you have set forth show how he can insure his friend is up against a hand she is at least a significant favorite if not dominating advantage without risking any chips.

I suppose you could look at it that way if you are paranoid. I'm just saying that if I were in N2KFACTOR's place in this hand and realized I could get a freeroll, this post would be about whether I knew the other player or not too.

Personally, I get more aggressive on the bubble and in N2KFACTOR's shoes with second biggest chipstack, I'd be stealing as often as I could.

While passive players who are worried about bubbling out are throwing away KQ to make it to 9th place, I'm pushing players like them out of pots to try to chip up my own stack.

If the short stack doubles up in this situation, we are on the bubble longer. The longer we are on the bubble, the more chips I can take from players who are 'just trying to make it to the money,' improving my chances of winning the whole thing.

After seeing the number of paranoid players who instantly concluded that this was collusion without contemplating why an aggressive player would make this move; I now realize why Alcan sells so much tin-foil.

 

[Alon Ipser]

The idea isn't just to knock out players, it's to collect chips. If he wants to make a big cash, he should be looking to take advantage of most +EV situations and definitely all of those situations where he's not risking a lot of chips.

If I have a decent sized stack on the bubble, I'm going to be stealing way more than usual. Sometimes I am going to have a short stack reshove on me and I only have 78s. I know my hand's not best, but if I'm getting 3:1 or better, I'm going to be calling. This is not the way to play if I'm just trying to knock out players, but I will be playing this way because it's clearly +EV. Plus, if his hand does hold up, that just means we're on the bubble for longer, and I can keep stealing while everyone's playing too tight.

Now switch over to this hand. He's not steal-calling, but he's still making a potentially +EV play that will likely make it take longer to knock a player out. And again in this hand, if he loses the bubble will surely last longer giving him more time to make steals. If he was successfully stealing a lot before this hand, I think he made a great play. He's risking possibly 1000 but most likely only 200 with great pot odds and a good chance to stay on the bubble and farm more chips with steals. There's almost no downside to his raise.

Wow, what a rambling post. In short, I don't think good, aggressive chip leaders should be trying to break the bubble, they should be trying to prolong the bubble. Not to the point of giving away chips, but I don't think this raise was a significant leak, and it may have been a bit profitable.

Right he was actually getting 1050 to 0, since he had no chips committed. 5 to 1 was his chance of [3s 2d] beating [10c 10d] and winning the pot against his opponent. He was probably hoping that his opponent held a hand like [Ah Jh] which would have made him only a 2 to 1 dog. But either way, if the blinds fold like they are supposed to, its still 1050 to 0, which is better than any odds he could lay.

Chips weren't at risk once he was heads up. The raise was a move to isolate, so he could freeroll for $1050. Out of his $999 bet (not even close to all his chips) he won the sidepot of $400 (guaranteed when the blinds fold), and had $599 returned.

It could have been disastrous if someone in the blind woke up with a huge hand--but with a 5 handed table and one fold in front, he only had to worry about 2 seats having those big hands. The raise also wasn't that big in relation to the big-blinds, so its not like he was risking a lot to steal. If you have never tried a pure-steal from the button for fear that the blinds will hold pocket aces and call, you are missing a great opportunity.

Reasons that you can expect to not be called in this position:
+There are only two players to act, and they are both in the blind.
+The small blind is short-stacked, and not likely to want to commit his entire stack on anything less than a premium hand.
+The big blind is the big stack at the table, and less likely to want to trade places with the second biggest stack at the table with anything less than a premium hand.
+Most players think that anyone who raises to isolate an all-in must have a monster, since its 'bad tourney play' to not try to eliminate the player.
+Players usually think that since there is an all-in, your hand will have to be shown, and because of that, there is no way you would try a pure steal in this spot.
+The raise is only 2.5x--if the BB or SB wake up with a big hand, it should be easy to get away from a reraise.

I think the best part of this hand, is that it was guaranteed to be shown, which means that you are going to have an incredibly loose reputation when it plays out, win or lose.

yep

 

[martygokona]

I love the way you can defend that play.. and I actually see the value. But, I don't think for a second that was his thinking in that situation. Hey man, many of you defended him saying you know him. Why don't you just ask him if he was defending JennifeNL or making a move? Maybe he'll be honest. I already said I won't report anyone for anything.

I know what he was doing.. ask him to be honest about it.

 

[Alon Ipser]

This was a hand on Absolute where N2KFACTOR clearly made a bet to protect the short stack. We were on the bubble and I could tell they knew each other from the chat. I would have called from the SB without the big raise. Is that collusion? Bad Form? Should I have called anyway?

Stage #1311094019 Tourney ID 2091144 Holdem Multi Normal Tournament No Limit $400 - 2008-10-31 22:50:40 (ET)
Table: 5 (Real Money) Seat #6 is the dealer
Seat 1 - KDYGAL08 ($15473.50 in chips)
Seat 2 - MTGPLAYER ($4847 in chips)
Seat 5 - JENNIFERNL ($250 in chips)
Seat 6 - N2KFACTOR ($7652 in chips)
Seat 7 - MARTYGOKONA ($1147.50 in chips)
KDYGAL08 - Ante $50
MTGPLAYER - Ante $50
JENNIFERNL - Ante $50
N2KFACTOR - Ante $50
MARTYGOKONA - Ante $50
MARTYGOKONA - Posts small blind $200
KDYGAL08 - Posts big blind $400
*** POCKET CARDS ***
Dealt to MARTYGOKONA [Kc Qs]
MTGPLAYER - Folds
JENNIFERNL - All-In $200
N2KFACTOR - Raises $999 to $999
MARTYGOKONA - Folds
KDYGAL08 - Folds
N2KFACTOR - returned ($599) : not called
*** FLOP *** [9h Qd Qc]
*** TURN *** [9h Qd Qc] 8♠
*** RIVER *** [9h Qd Qc 8s] K♥
*** SHOW DOWN ***
JENNIFERNL - Shows [10c 10d] (Two Pair, queens and tens)
N2KFACTOR - Shows [3s 2d] (One pair, queens)
N2KFACTOR Collects $400 from side pot-1
JENNIFERNL Collects $1050 from main pot
*** SUMMARY ***
Total Pot($1450:$1050,$400)
Board [9h Qd Qc 8s Kh]
Seat 1: KDYGAL08 (big blind) Folded on the POCKET CARDS
Seat 2: MTGPLAYER Folded on the POCKET CARDS
Seat 5: JENNIFERNL won Total ($1050) All-In HI$1050) with Two Pair, queens and tens [10c 10d - B:Qd,B:Qc,P:10d,P:10c,B:Kh]
Seat 6: N2KFACTOR (dealer) won Total ($400) HI$400) with One pair, queens [3s 2d - B:Qd,B:Qc,B:Kh,B:9h,B:8s]
Seat 7: MARTYGOKONA (small blind) Folded on the POCKET CARDS

I love the way you can defend that play.. and I actually see the value. But, I don't think for a second that was his thinking in that situation. Hey man, many of you defended him saying you know him. Why don't you just ask him if he was defending JennifeNL or making a move? Maybe he'll be honest. I already said I won't report anyone for anything.

I know what he was doing.. ask him to be honest about it.

In your OP you ask if it was "bad form" right after you state you would have called without the raise. That alone says his raise accomplished what it was supposed to do. He wanted to isolate the short stack. What happened in this hand was exactly what was supposed to happen. He made $200 with a chance for the KO. I do not know these people, so I'm not defending for that reason. As I stated before, it is a play that I could make. Go ahead and report, from the responses here it ought to be obvious that the poker room will take no action on a legitamate poker play.