Call or fold the river?

PokerFunKid

PokerFunKid

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A hand in a $25 buy in tournament. Very wierd overbet on river. May be a big bluff or a monster hand. What do you think? Call? Fold? Its in early stage of the tournament. First level.

$10/$20 Blinds No Limit Holdem
Tournament #63219554 $23 + $2
Seat 2 is the button
Total number of players : 8
Seat 1: mnk73 ( $3,000 )
Seat 2: tehnats ( $2,990 )
Seat 3: iconblack ( $3,064 )
Seat 4: Ckopo6oraT ( $2,990 )
Seat 5: x3AHECYKAx ( $2,990 )
Seat 6: guardatoma ( $3,042 )
Seat 7: HERO ( $2,970 )
Seat 9: CCCC03 ( $3,010 )
iconblack posts small blind [$10]
Ckopo6oraT posts big blind [$20]
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to HERO [ Ks, Ad ]
x3AHECYKAx folds
guardatoma folds
HERO raises [$60]
CCCC03 folds
mnk73 folds
tehnats folds
iconblack calls [$50]
Ckopo6oraT calls [$40]
** Dealing flop ** [ 7s, Td, 7c ]
iconblack checks
Ckopo6oraT checks
HERO bets [$90]
iconblack folds
Ckopo6oraT calls [$90]
** Dealing turn ** [ Ah ]
Ckopo6oraT checks
HERO checks
** Dealing river ** [ 8s ]
Ckopo6oraT bets [$400]
HERO folds
** Summary **
Ckopo6oraT did not show his hand
Ckopo6oraT collected [ $360 ]
 
H

hffjd2000

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I would definitely fold too.

Its still early and we dont know where we stand. Either a big hand or a bluff for me.
 
Romario2223

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yes i would fold too.
Not best hand for this board
 
B

Bjshamb69

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it feels abit loose but i probably call... enough bluffs and worse aces in range... tho as mentioned... early on so definatly reasons to just let it go
 
romych007

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I would not risk it in the early
stages of the tournament and I
would have to fold
 
sandund

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maybe Hero missed his chance to take the pot with the little raise after the turn.
 
K

Kongol

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idk, really depending on the tournament if it was a 1 time buy in and no rebuys, folding was probaly good and safe. But sometimes in a tournament that allows re buys, especually unlimited or double rebuys you will see some of the worst poker (next to freerolls) because some people just want to double up, and dont care if they have to throw another 25$ to rebuy
 
J

johnsonmad

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That's a tough choice. It's hard to risk lots of your chips early on. I would probably fold in a $25 buy in tourney but call if it was a freeroll or a lesser buy in. My guess is that player CK is bluffing to get the pot, he might have a pair of tens or eights. I think he would of re-raised after the flop or turn if he had trip sevens.
 
L

losties

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It looks like fold would be the safe choice, but I think I might have called depending on how I've been observing the player. It's more of a call then a fold for me. There is only so many outs in your range that it's hard not too. It does feel like a two pair play from his end though.
 
bushy_lufc

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So this was the 8th hand in the tournament so not a whole bunch of info on the player. Both players were in the blinds which can signify a pretty wide range of starting hands, more so for the Big blind. The small blind was at 50/0 and the BB was at 33/0 for the 6 hands so both pretty happy to get involved passively.

On a paired flop that is a rainbow board AK high is usually good and will take it down around 50-65% of the time with a half pot bet but of course the hand plays pretty ok when called too. So half pot bet was fired and the big blind calls.

The turn comes down the A of hearts so we are full rainbow and 0 draws come in and pretty much 0 draws develop for the range of hands likely to check call that flop out of position. When Villain checks betting here doesn't seem to accomplish too much, all worse hands that are not Ax are folding beside maybe 89 dependent on the price and how poor the Villain is. We would be value owning ourself if he calls any hand that beats us but to be check raised on the turn this early in the tournament puts us in a whole world of hurt so checking back seems the best option for pot control and a little deception.

River comes an 8 and the villain now decides to over bet the pot. Now i don't know about you guys but whenever i see an over bet whether it be an over shove or 5 chips more than the pot it is 85% of the time a monster and 15% of the time total air with 0% showdown value.

So now to our pot odds we are calling 400 to win 760 so we get 1.9-1 so we got to beat roughly 50% of his range for this spot.

Villains range for calling from the BB in this pot is pretty wide after he shows he is happy to play a lot of pots with his loose passive style however when he check calls the flop his range now becomes 22-TT (assuming he is passive i think TT can be in his non 3 bet range) it is also A2-AJ (maybe AQ) it is T7-KT, 74s 75-7K (already said A7) and also any straight draw so 96 97 89 and J9. You may disagree with this but i feel it a pretty accurate range assumption.

We have to figure his Ax range is a whole lot less likely as we have an Ace and an Ace is out there on the board so that part of his range is a whole lot thinner that the rest of it.

Now on that river with the over bet we need to ask ourselves what his range should be of those hands we identified to be in his flop range and if we beat 50% of those hands we need to for it to be profitable.

Ok lets start with 22-TT, 22-66 will be checking the river as they have showdown value and they have very little need to be overbetting however a very very small percentage of the time they may turn this into a bluff but even less likely they would overbet bluff it but crazier things have happened however i feel we can eliminate them from is range after his bet and same goes with 99 for the showdown reason. 77 88 and TT all can very clearly overbet this river as they are all the effective nuts against the way we play this hand.

Now onto the Ax we have already spoken about the chances of Ax being much less likely so our analysis of his Ax rangehas about half of the significance of the other hands in his range. A2-A6 again most often will make a 40-100% pot value bet or check call but again every now and then a fish may over value their hand and overbet it but really really unlikely this happens. Same goes for A9 AJ AQ however AJ/AQ would be a little more likely to over bet but still not really happening. A8 A7 AT all once again could certainly make an overbet for value. Every single 7x can easily over bet this river that is obvious and simple. Now for the straight draws, 89 makes a pair on the river and will likely try to get a cheap showdown, both 97 and J9 now make a straight and can certainly decide to overbet for value. Now 96 in my mind is the only plausable hand with 0 showdown value that is in his range given his actions!

So to some up his likely range of value hands:
77,88,TT,A8,A7,AT,74,75,76,78,7T,7J,7Q,7K,97,J9 (maybe even T8 that i missed)

His likely bluffs:
96.....
now and again but not often due to having showdown value 22,33,44,55,66

And we beat:
A2,A3,A4,A5,A6,A9,AJ,AQ but with 2 aces gone and the chances he over bets them super unlikely we can't account for these often.

Now i don't know about you but i think we can assume we are toast here and we fold.
 
Jacki Burkhart

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so, I would have probably tank called here.

But after reading Bushy's analysis I think folding is better.
 
S

SamBush

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I am a fish unlike my brother so i would probably snap his head off or bet the turn haha.
 
Dubstep

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It doesnt have the size of the pot on the turn? so im meant to do all this math in my head or use a calculator? what a shit converter. Me im the biggest fish so dont listen to me. but i would snap call... a big 400$ bet on river... If he had a good hand he would be screaming for a call and would raise smaller so you can call.. usually a big bet like this means he is trying to scare you of the pot so i would snap call in this spot. and i like the check on the turn thats exactly the the play that induces these kinds of strong leads bluffs on the river. and yes i have been drinking :)

If i played this hand i would have barreled the turn and check called the river most of the time.

So this was the 8th hand in the tournament so not a whole bunch of info on the player. Both players were in the blinds which can signify a pretty wide range of starting hands, more so for the Big blind. The small blind was at 50/0 and the BB was at 33/0 for the 6 hands so both pretty happy to get involved passively.

On a paired flop that is a rainbow board AK high is usually good and will take it down around 50-65% of the time with a half pot bet but of course the hand plays pretty ok when called too. So half pot bet was fired and the big blind calls.

The turn comes down the A of hearts so we are full rainbow and 0 draws come in and pretty much 0 draws develop for the range of hands likely to check call that flop out of position. When Villain checks betting here doesn't seem to accomplish too much, all worse hands that are not Ax are folding beside maybe 89 dependent on the price and how poor the Villain is. We would be value owning ourself if he calls any hand that beats us but to be check raised on the turn this early in the tournament puts us in a whole world of hurt so checking back seems the best option for pot control and a little deception.

River comes an 8 and the villain now decides to over bet the pot. Now i don't know about you guys but whenever i see an over bet whether it be an over shove or 5 chips more than the pot it is 85% of the time a monster and 15% of the time total air with 0% showdown value.

So now to our pot odds we are calling 400 to win 760 so we get 1.9-1 so we got to beat roughly 50% of his range for this spot.

Villains range for calling from the BB in this pot is pretty wide after he shows he is happy to play a lot of pots with his loose passive style however when he check calls the flop his range now becomes 22-TT (assuming he is passive i think TT can be in his non 3 bet range) it is also A2-AJ (maybe AQ) it is T7-KT, 74s 75-7K (already said A7) and also any straight draw so 96 97 89 and J9. You may disagree with this but i feel it a pretty accurate range assumption.

We have to figure his Ax range is a whole lot less likely as we have an Ace and an Ace is out there on the board so that part of his range is a whole lot thinner that the rest of it.

Now on that river with the over bet we need to ask ourselves what his range should be of those hands we identified to be in his flop range and if we beat 50% of those hands we need to for it to be profitable.

Ok lets start with 22-TT, 22-66 will be checking the river as they have showdown value and they have very little need to be overbetting however a very very small percentage of the time they may turn this into a bluff but even less likely they would overbet bluff it but crazier things have happened however i feel we can eliminate them from is range after his bet and same goes with 99 for the showdown reason. 77 88 and TT all can very clearly overbet this river as they are all the effective nuts against the way we play this hand.

Now onto the Ax we have already spoken about the chances of Ax being much less likely so our analysis of his Ax rangehas about half of the significance of the other hands in his range. A2-A6 again most often will make a 40-100% pot value bet or check call but again every now and then a fish may over value their hand and overbet it but really really unlikely this happens. Same goes for A9 AJ AQ however AJ/AQ would be a little more likely to over bet but still not really happening. A8 A7 AT all once again could certainly make an overbet for value. Every single 7x can easily over bet this river that is obvious and simple. Now for the straight draws, 89 makes a pair on the river and will likely try to get a cheap showdown, both 97 and J9 now make a straight and can certainly decide to overbet for value. Now 96 in my mind is the only plausable hand with 0 showdown value that is in his range given his actions!

So to some up his likely range of value hands:
77,88,TT,A8,A7,AT,74,75,76,78,7T,7J,7Q,7K,97,J9 (maybe even T8 that i missed)

His likely bluffs:
96.....
now and again but not often due to having showdown value 22,33,44,55,66

And we beat:
A2,A3,A4,A5,A6,A9,AJ,AQ but with 2 aces gone and the chances he over bets them super unlikely we can't account for these often.

Now i don't know about you but i think we can assume we are toast here and we fold.




If you cant explain a concept to your grandma... it means you dont know the concpt and im pree sure your grandma would have already died by the time she gets to the end of this massive post lol

If i played this hand i would have barreled the turn and check called the river most of the time.



But if you are vsing some LAG dickhead its a good idea to check the turn because he will see the check on the turn as weakness and fire a bet like 100% of the time on the river which im pretty confident happened to you here.

:boxing:

......
 
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Delvuter

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1st thing, I raise 6x BB from any position withthis monster hand pre flop. 2ndI bet 12x BB post flop. 3rdafter that turn (supposing it even got that far) I would bet 18x BB. Can’t comprehend checking that like youdid. 4th after the riverblank I would be betting up to 24x BB. Iam a tight aggressive player and AK I am going to come out blasting.
 
R

RamdeeBen

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You really need to bet the turn, as played, you have created this situation by not betting the turn.
 
Farseer

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I think I would call. His range is enormously polarized by that betting size, and we haven't shown real strength by checking the turn. I think that as played you really can't fold river (opponent has many missed draws in his range, and I'm not even sure if he would bet that much with J9).

Of course there could be T, but at that chance I would say that it was very poorly played by him for not donking @ turn as A hits your range so well.
 
horizon12

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When stack deep in marginal situation better not to risk with only top pair, so easy fold.. Because bet 400 its look like value bet with nuts vs our Ax,,

About your game , preflop raise very small , need raise around 80-100.. In flop vs 2 villain only check, they never fold in this board, in turn need value bet 50% of the pot with our top pair and in river check/fold...
 
U

UnreaLaydown

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Lay it down, but don't let it go unnoticed. If you see him show down a similar bluff later in the tournament be quick to make a note. Poker is winning the small battles, sometimes this takes patience in the form of deciding what spots you need to pick.
 
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