Bluffing does work.. :)

twizzybop

twizzybop

Legend
It doesn't akways work.. but in this instant it did..Like they say a bluffing strategy is in the timing.

Table: 4492396 (real money) Seat #5 is the dealer
Seat 1 - BELLA2003 ($1440 in chips)
Seat 2 - FORDADORE ($1265 in chips)
Seat 4 - TWIZZYBOP ($1240 in chips)
Seat 5 - AUSSIE63 ($5860 in chips)
Seat 6 - DIESELPOWER ($1565 in chips)
Seat 8 - PANAMAJAY ($1230 in chips)
Seat 9 - GMONEY411 ($900 in chips)
DIESELPOWER - Posts small blind $20
PANAMAJAY - Posts big blind $40
*** POCKET CARDS ***
Dealt to TWIZZYBOP [10d Jd]
GMONEY411 - Calls $40
BELLA2003 - Folds
FORDADORE - Folds
TWIZZYBOP - Calls $40
AUSSIE63 - Folds
DIESELPOWER - Calls $20
PANAMAJAY - Checks
*** FLOP *** [2s Ks 5s]
DIESELPOWER - Checks
PANAMAJAY - Checks
GMONEY411 - Checks
TWIZZYBOP - Checks
*** TURN *** [2s Ks 5s] [As]
DIESELPOWER - Checks
PANAMAJAY - Checks
GMONEY411 - Checks
TWIZZYBOP - Bets $120
DIESELPOWER - Folds
PANAMAJAY - Folds
GMONEY411 - Folds
TWIZZYBOP - returned ($120) : not called
*** SHOW DOWN ***
TWIZZYBOP - Does not show
TWIZZYBOP Collects $160 from main pot
*** SUMMARY ***
Total Pot($160)
Board [2s Ks 5s As]
Seat 1: BELLA2003 Folded on the POCKET CARDS
Seat 2: FORDADORE Folded on the POCKET CARDS
Seat 4: TWIZZYBOP collected Total ($160) HI:($160) [Does not show]
Seat 5: AUSSIE63 (dealer) Folded on the POCKET CARDS
Seat 6: DIESELPOWER (small blind) Folded on the TURN
Seat 8: PANAMAJAY (big blind) Folded on the TURN
Seat 9: GMONEY411 Folded on the TURN
 
rocka13

rocka13

Guest
Nice one Twizzy.

Just for the sake of discussion what do we do if we get a fold and a call here. River is Qd just to throw another something in to think about.
 
robwhufc

robwhufc

Cardschat Elite
This is the most stupid hand analysis ever posted surely? You won 60 chips and you DIDN'T have a hand - no way!
 
twizzybop

twizzybop

Legend
robwhufc said:
This is the most stupid hand analysis ever posted surely? You won 60 chips and you DIDN'T have a hand - no way!

Sorry didn't know that bluffing shouldn't be used early on. <sarcasm>

Last I recalled bluffing is still part of strategy. Maybe I should have shown my cards for later on when I had a hand so I could get more action.

So next time a "bluffing strategy comes along" I won't do it because bluffing doesn't warrent a win even in the early stages.

Bluffing:to deceive (an opponent) in cards by a bold bet on an inferior hand

Sheesh glad I didn't deceive my opponents by a bold bet with an inferior hand. Wouldn't want to do that especially in the game of hold-em.<more sarcasm>
 
twizzybop

twizzybop

Legend
Just for the sake of discussion what do we do if we get a fold and a call here. River is Qd just to throw another something in to think about.

A continuation or value bet if you may. Opponent has checked on the flop, and the turn allready. Either baby flush(smooth calling in hopes you don't have the Queen), 2 pair(he is still going to call even with this). I would think you are dealing with a calling station, so no matter what you bet the person is going to call.
 
robwhufc

robwhufc

Cardschat Elite
It's just that this sort of hand is probably 1/3rd of the hands I play - raise pre-flop with a good hand, and make continuation bet when miss flop (but guesstimate that opponent has missed flop too). Making an opponent fold a better hand - that's bluffing. You have no idea what he had - if he didn't have top pair, flush or flush draw then there's no point him continuing is there? Thats hardly a bluff, and certainly not worth posting.
 
twizzybop

twizzybop

Legend
You have no idea what he had - if he didn't have top pair, flush or flush draw then there's no point him continuing is there? Thats hardly a bluff, and certainly not worth posting.

Yeah 4 people in the hand.. wouldn't ever possibly think that one has a flush.. couldn't think that now could we?? Now early on in the game.. your theory

I play - raise pre-flop with a good hand, and make continuation bet when miss flop (but guesstimate that opponent has missed flop too). Making an opponent fold a better hand - that's bluffing.
Yeah considering 2 players will call you with anything. Thats the good part of watching loose cannons. They love to raise with anything and call with anything.

Bluffing again for your misconception..
Bluffing:to deceive (an opponent) in cards by a bold bet on an inferior hand

If that wasn't an inferior hand then I'd eat my boot. 3 opponents and you don't think 1 would have at least a pair??

Yet lets look at your options.. Smart player vs loose cannon.. raise pre-flop with marginal hand.. 10,J of diamonds isn't by all means a good hand. Playable hand but definatly not good. Any A,10, A,J A,Q AK.. K,Q K,J K,10 beats the 10,J not to mention any pair never mind AA's KK's QQ's JJ's 10's.. Yeah I forget people won't call with those sort of cards especially against "YOU".

With that awefull flop.. The way people call with A(X) suited or King(x) suited. Oh yeah forgot again people wouldn't call that especially against "YOU".
 
robwhufc

robwhufc

Cardschat Elite
That's a long reply for such a non-event hand. I dont think you played it well - you were against 3 opponents and you were only getting even money on your bet. If one of those opponents had a big spade you would have lost your dough - I bluff way too much myself, but i'd pick a better risk / reward situation than that. Dont really see what you achieved (or why you bothered posting it). Sorry!
 
twizzybop

twizzybop

Legend
Dont really see what you achieved

Ok just so you can read it for the 3rd time..
Bluffing:to deceive (an opponent) or in this case opponents in cards by a bold bet on an inferior hand

Not a hard concept to understand.

Bluffing by your standards doesn't have to be an extreme outstanding bet or continious bets to be a bluff. There was nothing for me to "bet" on with an inferior hand. You don't have to take down big pots for it to be considered bluffing. That is where your problem lies, since it isn't a big bet or big continious bets, then it isn't considered bluffing. Don't see where the logic lies in that considering the meaning of bluffing is exactly what I did.
 
twizzybop

twizzybop

Legend
Rob,

Is this a little better to your liking?

Table: 4504441 (Real Money) Seat #9 is the dealer
Seat 1 - GUGILYMUGILY ($1470 in chips)
Seat 2 - NEONQB22 ($1500 in chips)
Seat 3 - THADOC4 ($1470 in chips)
Seat 4 - LIVESHOT ($1470 in chips)
Seat 5 - MYDOUCHEBAG ($1620 in chips)
Seat 6 - SDAY4X45 ($1470 in chips)
Seat 7 - TWIZZYBOP ($1020 in chips)
Seat 8 - WICKED_VIXEN ($2025 in chips)
Seat 9 - SLOTHH ($1455 in chips)
GUGILYMUGILY - Posts small blind $15
NEONQB22 - Posts big blind $30
*** POCKET CARDS ***
Dealt to TWIZZYBOP [Js Ks]
THADOC4 - Folds
LIVESHOT - Calls $30
MYDOUCHEBAG - Calls $30
SDAY4X45 - Calls $30
TWIZZYBOP - Calls $30
WICKED_VIXEN - Folds
SLOTHH - Folds
GUGILYMUGILY - Folds
NEONQB22 - Checks
*** FLOP *** [8s Qs 2c]
NEONQB22 - Bets $30
LIVESHOT - Folds
MYDOUCHEBAG - Folds
SDAY4X45 - Calls $30
TWIZZYBOP - Raises $90 to $90
NEONQB22 - Folds
SDAY4X45 - Calls $60
*** TURN *** [8s Qs 2c] [8c]
SDAY4X45 - Checks
TWIZZYBOP - Bets $90
SDAY4X45 - Calls $90
*** RIVER *** [8s Qs 2c 8c] [7h]
SDAY4X45 - Checks
TWIZZYBOP - Bets $90
SDAY4X45 - Folds
TWIZZYBOP - returned ($90) : not called
*** SHOW DOWN ***
TWIZZYBOP - Does not show
TWIZZYBOP Collects $555 from main pot
*** SUMMARY ***
Total Pot($555)
Board [8s Qs 2c 8c 7h]
Seat 1: GUGILYMUGILY (small blind) Folded on the POCKET CARDS
Seat 2: NEONQB22 (big blind) Folded on the FLOP
Seat 3: THADOC4 Folded on the POCKET CARDS
Seat 4: LIVESHOT Folded on the FLOP
Seat 5: MYDOUCHEBAG Folded on the FLOP
Seat 6: SDAY4X45 Folded on the RIVER
Seat 7: TWIZZYBOP collected Total ($555) HI:($555) [Does not show]
Seat 8: WICKED_VIXEN Folded on the POCKET CARDS
Seat 9: SLOTHH (dealer) Folded on the POCKET CARDS
 
Dorkus Malorkus

Dorkus Malorkus

HELLO INTERNET
You bluffed with no real draw on a 4 flush board in a tiny pot into 3 other players. You saying this is a prime example of good bluffing is like a guy who calls a push from AA with 32o and catches a running straight saying that that was an example of a fantastic play. Yep, bluffing is about timing, and with 3 others in a small pot with absolutely nothing on a 4 flush board is not the right time. You can say "But I won the pot!" all you like, just as the 32o guy can, but being results-oriented is never good.

Second hand: Raise preflop, and a strong player would have picked off your very weak bets at some point, and you're giving him odds to call down with his flush draw (pretty confident that's what he had).
 
twizzybop

twizzybop

Legend
You saying this is a prime example of good bluffing

Bluffing:to deceive (an opponent) or in this case opponents in cards by a bold bet on an inferior hand

Looks like a perfect prime example.. I deceived opponents in cards by a bold bet on an inferior hand. I don't think I did something else now did I?



Second hand: Raise preflop, and a strong player would have picked off your very weak bets at some point, and you're giving him odds to call down with his flush draw (pretty confident that's what he had).
Its early, more than likely someone about 90% of the time calls with crap, Even on the 3-5X BB raise. So in this case a small pre-flop raise would suffice.. The Flush draw was correct odds for me, hence the re-raise(thats called a sem-bluff). Yet since neither of us had hit the flush draw and its early on, I bet him off the pot with the last bet. A stronger player would have raised pre-flop with a stronger hand which then I would have folded pre-flop. Early in the game, no need to risk life and limb with a strong ass bluff when there is no reason to.

Just like I told Rob, Just because I didn't bluff strongly, doesn't mean its not bluffing. I play at the same tables, getting to know a few names here and there. Also they are getting to know me.. Be surprised now as how many respect whatever bet I make.
 
twizzybop

twizzybop

Legend
Yep, bluffing is about timing, and with 3 others in a small pot with absolutely nothing on a 4 flush board is not the right time. You can say "But I won the pot!" all you like, just as the 32o guy can, but being results-oriented is never good.

It did the job yes or no? It won me some chips to bet with? Isn't the purpose of the game to become the winner with the most chips? Again just because it didn't win me "a lot of chips!" doesn't mean it wasn't the right time.

Now by all means show a bluff where a bunch of chips are won..Even the simpliest of bluffs when you are in the blinds, everyone folds to the blinds. You both call, nothing flops for neither one of you. Yet you bet, he folds.. You've now bluffed some chips for when the blinds come around again. Those small stacks of chips come in handy for paying the blinds when you hold crap cards while in those blinds.
 
Dorkus Malorkus

Dorkus Malorkus

HELLO INTERNET
*Sigh*

Let me break this down.

1) You bluffed into 4 other players

- Chances are at least one of these players has a hand they're going to play. Read any reasonable poker guide and it will tell you not to bluff into multiple players.

2) Your risk/reward ratio is low

- The pot is small, and this point mainly derives from you saying you'd bet the river if you got one caller. Anything a person has and is willing to call a reasonable turn bet with here, he will call a river "value" bet with, with the odd exception among really bad players.

3) You're bluffing into a 4-flush board against loose players

Obviously some of these players are loose as there's 4 to the flop and it's early stages. Bluffing loose players here is silly, many donks will call with something like the 3s.

4) You have no draw, and there is a high possibility you are drawing dead against any hand that calls you

This speaks for itself I hope.

twizzybop said:
Bluffing:to deceive (an opponent) or in this case opponents in cards by a bold bet on an inferior hand

Looks like a perfect prime example.. I deceived opponents in cards by a bold bet on an inferior hand. I don't think I did something else now did I?

Sigh.

I'm not saying it wasn't a bluff, just as I'm not gonna say that Mr. 32o with the running straight didn't win the pot vs. AA. I'm just saying it was an example of a poor bluff everything considered, just as calling with the 32o would be a poor play.

twizzybop said:
It did the job yes or no? It won me some chips to bet with? Isn't the purpose of the game to become the winner with the most chips? Again just because it didn't win me "a lot of chips!" doesn't mean it wasn't the right time.

Sigh.

Dorkus Malorkus said:
Yep, bluffing is about timing, and with 3 others in a small pot with absolutely nothing on a 4 flush board is not the right time. You can say "But I won the pot!" all you like, just as the 32o guy can, but being results-oriented is never good.
 
twizzybop

twizzybop

Legend
- Chances are at least one of these players has a hand they're going to play. Read any reasonable poker guide and it will tell you not to bluff into multiple players.

I know this.. Pretty decent time to take a stab now wasn't it? People were afraid to bet at the pot.. I wasn't, never have been ever afraid to stab at a pot. Now you think I'd put a big bet in, that it would definatly scream "Call me"

The pot is small, and this point mainly derives from you saying you'd bet the river if you got one caller. Anything a person has and is willing to call a reasonable turn bet with here, he will call a river "value" bet with, with the odd exception among really bad players. No not at all, simple call or fold on the river.. let me break it down for you. I bet $120.00.. Blinds are only at 40.. Flop call, Turn Call, and river call.. For each 3 of those it only cost me 3 Blinds.. 40 chips after the flop, 40 after the turn and 40 after the river. Not bad just 3 regular bets at tops it would have cost me.. Make that up when I fold a lot of my small blinds. Early in the game, Most of those who know I won't bet crazy early in the game(not anymore).. Learned that from here.. Still do it on occasion but not as much. So minimum risk for minimum reward.. Just like Big risk for Big reward.. Doesn't always have to be a big risk to get a reward now does it?

I'm not saying it wasn't a bluff, just as I'm not gonna say that Mr. 32o with the running straight didn't win the pot vs. AA. I'm just saying it was an example of a poor bluff everything considered, just as calling with the 32o would be a poor play
Apples vs Oranges.. Big Big Risk for Big Reward compared to Minimum Risk for Minimum Reward. Yet both are risks non-the-less.. even the AA is a risk but better potential for a bigger reward.

Its like someone playing scratch tickets.. someone plays $20.00 has a better chance of reaping higher rewards. Yet someone playing $1.00 can reap a reward just not as high. Yes they both are risks and carry the same problem with a risk.. you may end up with nothing. Yet it still becomes a risk even if you are playing $1.00 or $20.00... Just because one risk is a higher price doesn't change the % of a risk because you play 1.00
 
dj11

dj11

Legend
Awards
9
There are times when the situation almost demand these type bluffs. I appreciate the posts, but also agree it was nothing special. In the great art of bluffing these would be considered steals rather than bluffs.

But as we do still cater to those learning the game, (we do right?) these can demonstrate decent steals even in multi-way hands.

I will assume that twizz would have folded to a check raise in either case.

And Rob, we know you pull these off very often, and are laying a big trap any day now!;)
 
zachvac

zachvac

Legend
There are times when the situation almost demand these type bluffs. I appreciate the posts, but also agree it was nothing special. In the great art of bluffing these would be considered steals rather than bluffs.

But as we do still cater to those learning the game, (we do right?) these can demonstrate decent steals even in multi-way hands.

I will assume that twizz would have folded to a check raise in either case.

And Rob, we know you pull these off very often, and are laying a big trap any day now!;)

Just wanted to let you know, take a look at the date on these posts: 2005. Why the last poster posted that one-line response to a 2+ year old thread is beyond me.
 
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