Big money tourney/What is villans range?

mrsnake3695

mrsnake3695

I'm confused
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Pokerstats $100+9 MTT.

Starting stacks 2000
About 45 minutes into play blinds at 25/50
We have 2900 villan has 4300

Folded to the cutoff who raises to 150. Villan on the button raises to 400. I am in the SB with AA. I raise to 1000. Cutoff folds, villan calls.

Reads. I haven't played many hands lately has I have been card dead for ahwile. The last hand I took to showdown was KK.

Cutoff has been making position raises when folded to him.

Villan has been loose/aggressive. About 5 hands ago he cracked aces with KQ os on the river against solid raises from the player with the aces. He has raised with pretty weak hands in the past.

So what range of hands do you put villan on that reraises and then cold calls a big 3 bet?

Flop comes 8, J, Q rainbow. You are first to act. What do you do here and why? There is about 2200 in the pot and you have about 1900 left.
 
dj11

dj11

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Shove and pray. Your damned if you do, and damned if you don't, so ALL IN is the question. From what you tell us, I'm thinking villain is going to make sure you get all your chips in there so beat him to the punch.

Villains range, is probably 99 up, but him raising the CO, and then only calling you gives hope. Could be trouble obviously if he is QQ or JJ.

In this case you being first to act is a distinct advantage. Make him do the sweating. If you do anything other than shove here, you give him the green light to make you do the sweating.
 
skoldpadda

skoldpadda

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Insta-shove. What is really the question here? Either you shove pre-flop or you do a shove with the stop and go on the flop. With any flop and aces being pot committed is there really any flop you shouldn't be shoving on? I don't think so with the chip stack you have.
 
mrsnake3695

mrsnake3695

I'm confused
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Well Im more interested in what u guys think villian might have with his reraise and then call of a 3 be. What hands do this?

And what about pre-flop? Anyone just call, raise more?

Is there anyone that checks the flop here?
 
J

joeeagles

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You say CO has been making positional raises when folded to him, so villain has probably also noticed that and reraised him in position, but then he calls your reraise to 1k, so we have to give him some kind of credit for a hand, but you say he's loose and aggressive, and that opens up the range considering he has position.

With that flop obviously the fear is that he has QQ or JJ, but his range is certainly wider than that and includes AK, KK, AQs, TT and probably more since he's LAG. I don't see how you can fold this, there is no way in hell with the pot that big, although its scary. You have to take the chance here.

I'm not sure I'd shove though if you decided to risk, no sense in giving him a chance to fold this if he missed. I'd rather CRAI to get more in there if you think he's aggressive enough to take a stab at the pot.

I know one can say that your reraise screams of a hand like AA or KK, so if you check and he bets it might be he has you beat, but I couldn't possibly fold this on the flop no matter what, once the pot is that big and I'm up against a player with a LAG profile. Its way too early in the hand to pinpoint him on something so specific like a set, and your stack really has no room left to throw in a bet for info. If I lose so be it, he was lucky enough to crack aces twice, its his tourney.
 
mrsnake3695

mrsnake3695

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OK, but can we check here at all? Suppose villan has a hand with a 9 or 10 in it or a PP that isn't a set? Can we afford to give him a free card?
 
J

joeeagles

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Yes, he's aggressive and he'll take a stab at the pot, unless he's really smart and understands why you're checking or he really does have a set in which case he'll slowplay it.

This depends a lot on what you think of him, but if you believe there is a good chance he fires at it, then definitely go for CRAI (check raise all-in), get more in the pot if you can because you're chips are going in no matter what (at least if it were me playing). Of course you can't be sure he's going to bet but I'd try a check, he could put you on AK. I know board is dangerous but its either me busto or I get his LAG ass.

Another solution is to lead out weak, like 500, making him really think you're on AK so he could feel like he has a green light to put you all-in. I like this also.

Reason why I don't like the all-in on that board is because if he has a hand like KK or AK or AQs which you are all WA of, he'll end up folding and you lost value. Even KK will fold here because he'll realize he's behind, what hand is KK beating on that board considering the amount of your reraise PF?

No sense talking about any other hand where he is ahead because you can't fold on this flop, so you're doomed anyway in that case.

I say check or lead out weak, whichever you think works better against him.
 
dj11

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Sure you can check. It is just a button, but what will most likely happen here. Villain will most likely take that as weakness and force you all in anyway, then you have that uncomfortable decision. Save yourself the stress, put it on him. If you check and he checks, then what? You've given him another chance to crack your aces, and gained no fresh info. If he hit a set your toast regardless. Ok 2 outs.

Play it stress free here, shove it!
 
mrsnake3695

mrsnake3695

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I want to explain my thinking in the hand. Please tell me is you see any flaws.

Pre-flop I see a person that makes position raises make what looks like another one, then villan reraises him on the button. I don't feel I can just call here since that will give odds to both the BB and original raiser to call and I sure don't want to go up against 3 players. I also want some action preferably by one player. If I make a raise here I will most likely push out both the BB and original raiser but I want to make it small enough to get a call from the reraiser. Best case scenerio is that villan reraises or shoves my raise. So both others fold and villan calls. This is a decent result for me I feel since I want to make some money with my aces if I can.

When the flop comes I don't really like it since alot of villans holdings could have hit here. There are also straight draws available and I don't want to give him a free card. I feel a check here is more dangerous than a shove considering there is nothing villan can bet that I fold to anyway.

So, I shove and villan instant calls.

Any guesses as to what villan had?
























Villan had Jack-9 off suit.
Turn was a blank and the river was a 10 giving villian his gutshot straight.
I feel I played this right but I really wanted to post this not for a "bad beat" or "how my aces got cracked" story. But, rather to show that there are really bad players even at the higher levels. This was a $100.00 buy in. People complain about the play at the lower levels and wonder if they should move up to avoid the "donks that catch". This is a warning to all that they are everywhere not just at the low levels.

I've seen some amazingly bad play at pretty high levels. Just know they are all over.
 
J

joeeagles

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I want to explain my thinking in the hand. Please tell me is you see any flaws.

Pre-flop I see a person that makes position raises make what looks like another one, then villan reraises him on the button. I don't feel I can just call here since that will give odds to both the BB and original raiser to call and I sure don't want to go up against 3 players. I also want some action preferably by one player. If I make a raise here I will most likely push out both the BB and original raiser but I want to make it small enough to get a call from the reraiser. Best case scenerio is that villan reraises or shoves my raise. So both others fold and villan calls. This is a decent result for me I feel since I want to make some money with my aces if I can.

When the flop comes I don't really like it since alot of villans holdings could have hit here. There are also straight draws available and I don't want to give him a free card. I feel a check here is more dangerous than a shove considering there is nothing villan can bet that I fold to anyway.

So, I shove and villan instant calls.


I don't see any flaws at all. The whole PF thought process looks fine to me, you want to get some value for AA and in the same time protect your hand trying to get it HU. You accomplished both.

After the flop, I might have done differently, can't really say for sure, but only because the player was profiled as LAG, so I wanted all his chips in the pot and try to make his ass pay, although it carries the big risk of getting outdrawn. You went all-in and still accomplished that, so there really isn't any difference. If you check, he'll fire for sure and you raise all-in, and results will be the same. I understand your whole point of trying not to give a free card, it makes alot of sense being that you're facing a LAG, you can't exclude he has a T or 9, like he did.

I don't know if this guy is a smart player or not, it doesn't seem so. He must of somehow put you on AK or your shove looked suspicious to him, I guess. More likely he's just a donk as you say, and I'm giving him too much credit with the AK theory. Your comments about quality of players in the higher buy-ins are very true as I'm coming to realize. Although I haven't played the $100 level, I've tried up to $33 MTT's and have noticed the level is actually just as poor as the low stakes. You'll find some better players, but certainly a small minority. When some members here who abitually play those levels said this, I decided to give it a shot myself and found this to be very true. I haven't been able to score a big cash on these tournies yet, but definitely not because I'm getting outplayed.

This is probably not the right place but I'll post this because I know you'll read it and I'd like your opinion, and this J9 hand you ran into kind of brings it up. I've noticed lately a lot of players defending their blinds much more aggressively calling raises with marginal hands. While this is not necessarily a bad thing, at times it creates trouble and gets you knocked out or makes you lose chips. I'll tell you a real one that happened to me in the FTP $26k garanteed ($24 +$2 buy-in). I raise from MP with KK, BB calls. Flop comes Q74 rainbow, he bets into me, I reraise putting him all-in (I have him covered), he calls, turns over Q6s and catches runner runner for a straight. What can you do? I guess he called the PF raise from a bigger stack because he was sooooted. This hand crippled me and I ended up busting in 47th place (~$80, 1st place almost 6k) a little more than 2 orbits later because of it.

Here is a sure fact, if you tighten up too much with your starting hand, you become excessively card dependant, and even that doesn't work if you miss the flop. You may have the best starting hand but you'll hit the flop only 1 in 3 times. Say you raise with AQ in LP and the SB calls your raise, flop comes T84, and he bets into you. What do you do? I almost always give up and fold, and maybe its a mistake, but I've seen too many marginal hands win in these situations, last night a player with AK lost and got knocked out vs J8o on a 8 high flop ($11 tourney). Its amazing the amount of calls with marginal hands I've seen lately, and many times by players who don't have a stack big enough to make these calls.

Is it me, or have you noticed a tendency lately of players aggressively defending their blinds even with marginal hands? If so, how do you manage to fight back?
 
Irexes

Irexes

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There's shocking players at all levels, the ratios just change I think.

You've seen this guy play loose so his range is big. I like your preflop play as it gets rid of the cut-off, or at least narrows his range if he calls to pretty much QQ+.

Post flop I don't like the push I'm afraid. Ignoring for a second that this guy was bad enough to call with his Jack, I think that all the push does is give some hands you beat a chance to get away from it while still causing you to bust if you are beat.

I don't like checking either though as it kind of screams AA, KK (when combined with the preflop action and the free card is a worry). Last thing you want is to see the turn and then have an even worse decision.

The way I look at these situations is that if I'm beat, I'm beat, but if I'm ahead I want all of his chips. If he's poor then the best way to do this is to put in a bet of between 600 and 900.

Yes it gives him pot-odds to call with a bunch of chasing hands but he would probably feel he had odds to call a push anyway as you have less than the pot in your stack. It does make it harder for him to lay down AK, AQ, AJ, KJ, TJ, 99, 88, 77 etc etc which he might drop to a push.

Yes the turn might be a scare card, but you are pretty much committed to this pot anyway and if it's a scare card for you it possibly is for him as well. Either way you should be able to get him all-in.


With deeper stacks I'd play it completely differently but this is a particular situation.

Interesting hand.
 
ripptyde

ripptyde

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agree with previous poster: shove and pray

although after a raise and a reraise....I would likely shove pre flop.....in most cases you can get a call from the second raiser.
 
J

jeffred1111

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Villain range here is pretty big considering he has been caught playing KQo against solid raises. Considering that, QQ could be an option, but I doubt it. With such a drawless flop, I think that if we had more chips, a 1/2 pot bet would be the thing to do, but such a bet would make us pot comitted in our situation... I think the only thing to do is shove here in order to protect our hand: we probably won't get called, but we'll take a nice sized pot anyway.
 
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