[Beginner] Bad play or bad beat?

[Zombiefied]

[Please take in consideration I'm a begginer, it's very likely that my hands' analysis are stupid lol. Feel free to correct me, that is precisely the goal of this post]

I was at a single table Sit and Go (2$ buy-in). There were 7 players left. The big blind was at $200.

I had the biggest stack on the table, more or less 3500. The average stack was about 1900, i'd say.

I was playing slightly tight and a bit agressive.

So, the preflop comes 7-J suited (clubs).

I'm out of position and the hand isn't that good, but I decided to limp in (call) with 200.

Player X raises to 400 and player Z calls him (everyone else folded).

I decided to call, and put another 200 at the table. [in retrospective, I suppose I shouldn't have made the first call at all, right?]

The flop comes J, 2 (clubs), 4 (clubs).

Great, a pair of Jacks and the possibility of a flush. "Only" a top pair or pocket pairs (3 of a kind) could beat me at this moment. So I make my default betting, 3 times the big blind, 600. Player X folds, Player Z calls me.

The turn comes J. So now we have J, J, 2 (clubs), 4 (clubs). The J eliminates the possibility of him winning with one or two pair, and this lead me to become overconfident and think I was winning this hand. Being an inexperienced player I didn't contemplate the possibility of him having a full house or a full draw. I saw this J as great news and not as a scare card, which it was. So I make my default bet again (600), and he calls.

The river comes 8. I didn't believe he was slowplaying me (as the pot was big enough after the turn), so I assumed that the only possible way for him to beat my 3-of-a-kind was to have pocket pairs and to catch a card on the river that made his full-house. Since waiting for a card on the river is usually very bad strategy the odds were on me, or so I thought. The pot is now HUGE, 3900.
So, based on this I bet 1000, almost my full stack. The rationale for it? I'm not sure. lol. online poker requires very fast thinking and I don't know what was on my mind.

He calls and is all-in!

The showdown comes and he had two 8's, off-suit, making a full-house (8-8-8-J-J), thus beating my 3-of-a-kind.

Was I unlucky or did I play bad?

Should I've just made the default bet (600) at the river? That would do me no good anyway, since he was probably going to raise BIG (maybe all-in).

Any help, comments, suggestions are welcome

 

[GeoffLacey]

OK. First, just lay this down pre-flop. Don't even limp in. Just let it go.
As played, I probably shove turn. In fact it's not bad getting it in on the flop although I'm not really sure about your stack size, around like 2,400 preflop or something? If that's right, bet out on flop, shove turn.
However, you really need to work on your bet sizing. Once the flop is dealt, you should bet inproportion to pot size, not in terms of the big blind.

Also, when posting a hand, post a converted hand history, don't just explain what happened. Also, withhold results until it's been analysed, or you'll get biased analyses.

 

[shinedown.45]

TBH, I had just read up to the point about you limping with J-7 suited and will tell you that this is a fold preflop.
You had stated you had been playing a TAG style but limping OOP with J-7 is just the opposite of tight.
Again fold pre-flop.

 

[NascarFanSS]

on the flop i believe your 600 was alright..when i want to show strength i throw that 3xbb out the window...if not after the turn for sure push him all-in even if he folds you take down a nice pot no reason to bait or let him stay in the hand. He obviously felt like it was a good deal and called you on ace high or bottom pair because of your position and then he just plain got lucky. Wait til AA burns ya a few times that feels great.lol

 

[silverslugger33]

Well, you didnt really do much wrong on the flop. However, on the turn, you priced him in way too much. While this might be good, even if he doesn't hit his 8, you don't win as much as you can. Make a bigger bet on the turn. That being said, you still did get pretty unlucky.

 

[OzExorcist]

You really need to fold this one preflop - as the rest of the hand demonstrates, playing hands like this out of position is just asking for trouble.

Much of the rest has been said by Geoff and shinedown above.

One thing I will suggest though is not to think of your default bet in terms of the size of the big blind - especially after the flop. After the flop, it's the size of the pot that should guide your bet sizing.

There are two main reasons for us to bet:

1 - We think we're ahead, and we want worse hands to call
2 - We think we're behind, and we want better hands to fold

There may be some others too, but those are the main ones.

On the turn in this hand, for example, a bet of 600 into a pot of 2700 doesn't really accomplish either of those goals. It's less than a quarter of the pot, so a better hand than ours will never fold to it. And if we think we're ahead, we want them to call for a lot more than 600.

We've got about 2500 left in our stack at that stage. If we're going to keep playing the hand, I think we need to push all in. Some worse hands (underpairs that don't put you on a jack, and maybe draws) will still call you based on the size of the pot, and you've got outs to either a boat or flush against hands that have you beat (sets, better jacks).

 

[IMNER]

The 1 table sit & go is a good learning medium because you get to play at a full table, short handed and heads up if you get that far, all requiring different strategies.
At a full table and until you get down to about 5 players you need to play tight and play position for value, eg small and medium pairs in unraised pots and to small raises. You want to hit trips, which will happen about once out of seven times, otherwise fold them after the flop unless your likely to be still ahead. J 7 suited is a fold every time unless your in the blinds. In the early stages of a sit & go the blinds are small and the stack sizes are big so you usually only win a decent pot when 2 good hands clash and this is more likely to happen when there are a lot of players at the table. J 7 suited becomes playable at the bubble when there is 4 or 5 players left and its unlikely that there are premium hands out there, plus you have to steal the blinds just to stay alive.
The other thing you need to try and learn is to try to put players on likely hands they are playing. Player z called a small raise with a limper also in the pot and he stayed putting more chips in.

 

[mecoble]

id say for a beginner fold that hand preflop,if you are goin to play raise it not limp. also you bet way to small on flop and turn thats why 8s called. bet at least size of pot on flop and turn and maybe 8s fold and dont hit

 

[antizzle23]

i think ya u shouldnt have played it preflop with the blinds that big
but anyway i think on the turn u shoulda pushed cuz theres not many hands that have u beat and u have some outs
but the river was just bad luck. if he has 9s he sees the 8 as a blank and will probably call cuz he should still think his hand is good. but u just got some bad rivers

 

[IMNER]

The 1 table sit & go is a good learning medium because you get to play at a full table, short handed and heads up if you get that far, all requiring different strategies.

At the moment there is a big site offering S&G from 10 cents that could get you a ticket to the 2009 WSOP. I have been playing them over the week-end and I can tell you that the standard of play is very good, each game lasting about 1 hour. Cheap affordable learning for everyone. Best I did was level 3 when I bust out with pocket As on the bubble. I havn't mentioned the site because it is not one of the communities linked sites.

 

[hotwings18]

everyone is right... you should not have played this hand in the first place or even though your kicker was any good at all

 

[LizzyJ]

• There were 7 players left.
• The big blind was at $200.
• I had the biggest stack on the table, more or less 3500.
• I was playing slightly tight and a bit agressive.
• So, the preflop comes 7-J suited (clubs).
• I'm out of position

Throw it away. Don't start playing Bingo.

 

[cardsDontMatter]

I think you need to do some reading too. There are tons of books for SNGs and Tournaments. Cash games is a whole different ball-game, SNG and tournament strategies fail miserably at a ring game.

Harrington's series I, II, III are good, but for only one reason. Starting hand requirements in Vol. 1. As a beginner, this is where you should start. Read the Problems in each chapter too. The later books are good for beginners, but you must remember Harrington plays in "slow structured" tournaments, where his strategy is built from.

SNGs get harder as you progress in buyin, not necessarily in skill, but in equity calculations where advanced players are comfortable testing your will, regardless of their cards.

Stay at or below your buyin stated in your OP and win 5 SNGs in a row before you move up. Not cash... win.

Have fun.

 

[Yeti]

This has been yelled at you time and time again.. but.. out of position preflop - that is a fold. Just catch yourself, and fold it.

Next, your play was good. Other than your bets. When you reach the flop, no longer should your bets be 3x BB. That is folly. Instead they should be half the pot or above. Your 3x BB becomes comparatively smaller as the hand progresses, and you're giving your opponents better and better odds to continue calling you.

To conclude.. bad play partically, but ultimately a bad beat. Unlucky.

 

[Aaronftw]

Disregarding the fact you should of called preflop or not, this guy with pocket 8's made a bad very bad call in my mind. You noted average stack size around 1900, 400 preflop, 600 on the flop, hes now sitting on 900? then your turn bet of 600 leaves 300 if your calculations where correct. If he called the flop and the turn he though you where drawing.. Or hes just a complete donkey. Betting the same bet 600 on the turn suggests the J might not of helped you, him thinking hes 8's are good or your drawing your flush possibly? Then him hitting gold on the river has him laughing all the way. Shove the turn

 

[mlkmn5029]

never play gappers out of position like that. playing gappers will get u into a heap of trouble. myself i try no to play gappers at all unless i'm head up or unless they are suited. look at it this way, if it ain't worth raising, fold it

 

[IMNER]

I think you need to do some reading too. There are tons of books for SNGs and Tournaments. Cash games is a whole different ball-game, SNG and tournament strategies fail miserably at a ring game.

Harrington's series I, II, III are good, but for only one reason. Starting hand requirements in Vol. 1. As a beginner, this is where you should start. Read the Problems in each chapter too. The later books are good for beginners, but you must remember Harrington plays in "slow structured" tournaments, where his strategy is built from.

SNGs get harder as you progress in buyin, not necessarily in skill, but in Equity calculations where advanced players are comfortable testing your will, regardless of their cards.

Stay at or below your buyin stated in your OP and win 5 SNGs in a row before you move up. Not cash... win.

Have fun.

Good points on Harrington, but in fairness he did include online S & G and tournaments. I really liked his M and Q theory which determines the need for increased aggression

 

[pokertoi]

fold

That's a hand that should've been folded off rip. I thik you were so excited by your trips, that you weren't paying attention to your opponent.

 

[EvilEmperor]

You want to improve? I'll give it to you straight ok. If I sound harsh don't take it personally it just means I feel strongly about a particular aspect of your play.

you said:
"So, the preflop comes 7-J suited (clubs).

I'm out of position and the hand isn't that good, but I decided to limp in (call) with 200."

Dam right the hand isnt that good! Its suited but it only makes 1 straight and its not the nut straight. You knew it was crap and you knew it was the wrong thing to do to play it but you still played it!!! Learn to fold suited garbage.

Your second sin which was an even bigger mistake was open limping. Never open limp in a sng. If you're opening the betting raise and not just a min raise but raise to at least 3 or 4 bb.

You must have been feeling really sinful because not only did you open limped with suited garbage but you called a raise OOP with the same garbage.

You got lucky on the flop and hit top pair weak kicker plus decent flush draw. Then you bet out your "standard 3xbb raise"???!!!??? Did you even take any notice about what the size of the pot was at that moment? I make it at least 1200 seeing as 3 people put in 400 preflop. Did you take note of how many chips the players acting after you had left. This is vital and you must get into the habit of noting these things.

Postflop you size your bets according to the size of the pot not in BB!!!. So in this case your 600 bet was a 1/2 pot bet which offered the first caller 3/1 pot odds to call.

Not a bad move but you might have got more value checking and letting the preflop raiser represent the flop and check-raising him all-in. If both players ckecked behind you then you would draw a free card to hit a flush so not a major concern.

Getting rid of the preflop aggressor was a good result but the other caller obviously had more than air to call the flop bet. Likely hands include Jx or PP between J and 4. With only 1 overcard on the board most players will call bets in this situation especially 1/2 pot bets with medium pairs.

Now comes the turn and you hit trips. With a pot of at least 2400 you decide to put out a weak bet of 600. Only 1/4 pot!!! You need to be betting at least half pot in most cases. Size your bets according to the size of the pot.

At this stage you should have bet enough to put other player all in. Chances are you are ahead and if you are not he will put you all in anyway if he holds Jx because his kicker will be better than yours. You have a lot of outs though. But it is best to move all in here because he's likely to interpret it as a steal attempt and think his medium PP is good and not believe you have a J.

The river was unlucky for but you might folded out his hand with a bigger turn bet. Your weak turn bet probably made villain think his 8's were good.

Next time you think to yourself "I have a crap hand and I'm out of position" move your mouse pointer over the fold button and left click on it. This will save you a ton of chips.

 

[Janon]

yeah your first problem diffinity was not to limp in with that hand cuz your kicker is horrible to say the least.than im gonna assume the person who min raised it had the pocket 8. when u were betting the fact they were calling you on the flop and didnt reraise you probably meant you had the best hand so when you hit the the second jack for trips i would have atleast pot bet or pushed. this would allow no more draws and if someone did have a jack with a better kicker you still had outs to win thats how i would have played it anyways

 

[GDRileyx]

Even Doyle Brunson won't play tits, where you need all the middle cards to make a straight, according to his book Super System II.

It's a good example of how, when you play cards you should never have played, you can get killed when you catch something.

But that's the learning curve. You put your hand on the stove, and you got burned. Next time it will be alot easier to through away that suited K9.

 

[rodbrambilla]

I agree, don't play with these cards. But the full house of the vilan on the river was only bad lucky.

 

[soonerdel]

no its not a bad beat..
no reason to even be in the hand with J-7 out of position.
u say u had the chip lead at the time.
why even get involved with that hand and a great chip stack.

 

[Jfahimirad]

Gonna have to agree with the minority on this one. J-7 suited is a pretty poor hand, in any position. If you hit the jack, your kicker isn't too great or you make a spotty draw, it's a very loose hand and you end up getting into a decision if you can't shake him at the turn. Him sticking it out with 8's was pretty loose, and you got unlucky on the river. But he could have easily had AJ, J10, etc, even a set. You weren't in the greatest position, even when you hit trips.

 

[invader2]

I think the play was alright

its just u shouldn't be out of position like everyone else said.