BB special do I call Min raise?

burton_boy

burton_boy

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pokerstars Game #15859686866: Tournament #79262402, $1.00+$0.10 Hold'em No Limit - Level VIII (200/400) - 2008/03/09 - 15:57:18 (ET)
Table '79262402 37' 9-max Seat #3 is the button
Seat 1: rvrchsrhtr (10125 in chips)
Seat 2: JTPM (1430 in chips)
Seat 3: Jujuonu (31960 in chips)
Seat 4: RiCAr_dissi (11685 in chips)
Seat 5: Hate_Burton (10520 in chips)
Seat 6: Squashy22 (17097 in chips)
Seat 7: whineydog (9790 in chips)
Seat 8: Oliveiraus (9558 in chips)
Seat 9: kaliczynsky (12875 in chips)
rvrchsrhtr: posts the ante 40
JTPM: posts the ante 40
Jujuonu: posts the ante 40
RiCAr_dissi: posts the ante 40
Hate_Burton: posts the ante 40
Squashy22: posts the ante 40
whineydog: posts the ante 40
Oliveiraus: posts the ante 40
kaliczynsky: posts the ante 40
RiCAr_dissi: posts small blind 200
Hate_Burton: posts big blind 400
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to Hate_Burton [3h 9d]
Squashy22: folds
whineydog: folds
Oliveiraus: folds
kaliczynsky: folds
rvrchsrhtr: folds
JTPM: folds
Jujuonu: folds
Jujuonu is sitting out
Oliveiraus said, "kkk"
RiCAr_dissi: raises 400 to 800

So I am getting about 4 to 1 here and since all folded to SB who raised I would be heads up if I call. Should I just looking to catch and likely double up. I am putting him on high cards, maybe small PP. And come on it's a min raise which I hate. I am leaning towards a call but is it worth it in the long run?
 
BillyTheBull

BillyTheBull

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I guess a lot of it would depend on how often and with what sort of hands this guy has been raising from similar situations; however, based on your read, the fact that he has you covered, and since neither of you is under much pressure from the blinds, I'm leaning towards a clear fold here. Your hand is just plain weak and the flop would have to hit you almost perfectly to warrant any additional investment post flop; even if he's on a pure steal here he still has you beat in all likelihood, so getting 4-1 is not a good enough incentive to call, I think.

Don't think of it as losing 400 -- your BB is no longer yours as soon as it's been posted -- think of it as gaining 400 by making a correct fold. :cool:
 
ryaned

ryaned

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I call using your logic, 4:1 pot odds in position...only hand than really dominates is over pair...post flop play if you hit 9s may be problematic
 
jewboy07

jewboy07

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just fold

I call using your logic, 4:1 pot odds in position...only hand than really dominates is over pair...post flop play if you hit 9s may be problematic

FWIW a lot of hands dominate 9 3 i mean K9 Q9 pocket nines all 3 of which i can see the small blind raising with

sometimes the call out of the BB will be worth it but your cards are worse than garbage

you need the perfect flop and you must get at least half of your oppenents stack to be worth it, so with these cards i fold
 
Jillychemung

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I fold this 100%, the only flops you'd really like to see is 333, 33x, or 399. 9xx could be big trouble as jewboy07 said and even 39x & 99x are not slam dunks.
 
eagle jim

eagle jim

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I think its a trouble hand for you....as said earlier...only a perfect flop...if you do hit a 9 you could still be dominated by the kicker. Fold without a moments hesitation.
 
B

Bentheman87

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This is a mandatory call, you're getting 4.5:1 don't forget to include the antes in the starting pot and you're almost never worse than a 4.5:1 underdog here, even against Ace 9 you're not even a 3:1 underdog. More reasons to call are you have position and he only barely has you covered so he will be cautious postflop.
 
Alon Ipser

Alon Ipser

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I don't think I call here. It looks like he trying to steal the pot with a minimum bet to me but I don't know how he's been playing. I either fold or reraise if I think he's stealing.
 
burton_boy

burton_boy

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you're almost never worse than a 4.5:1 underdog here

I either fold or reraise if I think he's stealing.

I was thinking the same as Ben here. Even against a hand like AK technically I am getting the right odds. Alon I did think of reraising at first as I thought I could get him to lay it down but chose not to however since my read on him wasn't great. I did call and got lucky. Although I did do a decent job post flop of getting him to double me up. Great river IMO.:D

PokerStars Game #15859686866: Tournament #79262402, $1.00+$0.10 Hold'em No Limit - Level VIII (200/400) - 2008/03/09 - 15:57:18 (ET)
Table '79262402 37' 9-max Seat #3 is the button
Seat 1: rvrchsrhtr (10125 in chips)
Seat 2: JTPM (1430 in chips)
Seat 3: Jujuonu (31960 in chips)
Seat 4: RiCAr_dissi (11685 in chips)
Seat 5: Hate_Burton (10520 in chips)
Seat 6: Squashy22 (17097 in chips)
Seat 7: whineydog (9790 in chips)
Seat 8: Oliveiraus (9558 in chips)
Seat 9: kaliczynsky (12875 in chips)
rvrchsrhtr: posts the ante 40
JTPM: posts the ante 40
Jujuonu: posts the ante 40
RiCAr_dissi: posts the ante 40
Hate_Burton: posts the ante 40
Squashy22: posts the ante 40
whineydog: posts the ante 40
Oliveiraus: posts the ante 40
kaliczynsky: posts the ante 40
RiCAr_dissi: posts small blind 200
Hate_Burton: posts big blind 400
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to Hate_Burton [3h 9d]
Squashy22: folds
whineydog: folds
Oliveiraus: folds
kaliczynsky: folds
rvrchsrhtr: folds
JTPM: folds
Jujuonu: folds
Jujuonu is sitting out
Oliveiraus said, "kkk"
RiCAr_dissi: raises 400 to 800
Hate_Burton: calls 400
*** FLOP *** [3c Th 9c]
RiCAr_dissi: checks
Hate_Burton: bets 1200
RiCAr_dissi: calls 1200
*** TURN *** [3c Th 9c] 3♦
RiCAr_dissi: checks
Hate_Burton: bets 1400
RiCAr_dissi: calls 1400
*** RIVER *** [3c Th 9c 3d] K♠
RiCAr_dissi: bets 8245 and is all-in
Hate_Burton: calls 7080 and is all-in
*** SHOW DOWN ***
RiCAr_dissi: shows [Qh Jc] (a straight, Nine to King)
Hate_Burton: shows [3h 9d] (a full house, Threes full of Nines)
Hate_Burton collected 21320 from pot
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot 21320 | Rake 0
Board [3c Th 9c 3d Ks]
Seat 1: rvrchsrhtr folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 2: JTPM folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 3: Jujuonu (button) folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 4: RiCAr_dissi (small blind) showed [Qh Jc] and lost with a straight, Nine to King
Seat 5: Hate_Burton (big blind) showed [3h 9d] and won (21320) with a full house, Threes full of Nines
Seat 6: Squashy22 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 7: whineydog folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 8: Oliveiraus folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 9: kaliczynsky folded before Flop (didn't bet)


I know it was very lucky, first two pair, then the boat, then him catching his card. But honestly how many hands other than pockets 9 and higher have me at worse than 4:1? It's not like I cracked aces or anything, so the only problem is I still dont really see this as a bad call and it seems that most of you do. :( If he would have raised more than just a min raise I am almost certain that I would have folded it just seemed too good to pass up knowing that if I hit the flop it would be a goldmine and planned to check fold if I didn't.
 
L

landy011350

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great initial call...agree with your analysis although you did get lucky all around
 
BelgoSuisse

BelgoSuisse

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notwithstanding the results, I think the call is mandatory for meta play. you don't want to give villain the idea that he can steal your blinds this easily.
 
Jillychemung

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After running some numbers thru PokerStove it does look like a call. Even if we put villian on a tighter range than ATC, like 22+, K9s+, QTs+, JTs, A9o+, K9o+, QTo+, JTo, you are 3.57-1 dog.
 
BillyTheBull

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I was thinking the same as Ben here. Even against a hand like AK technically I am getting the right odds.

I know it was very lucky, first two pair, then the boat, then him catching his card. But honestly how many hands other than pockets 9 and higher have me at worse than 4:1? It's not like I cracked aces or anything, so the only problem is I still dont really see this as a bad call and it seems that most of you do. :( If he would have raised more than just a min raise I am almost certain that I would have folded it just seemed too good to pass up knowing that if I hit the flop it would be a goldmine and planned to check fold if I didn't.

Wow . . . you're right, that was VERY lucky; as a matter of fact, it couldn't possibly have gone any better for you. BUT, here's why I still don't agree that the call is correct: 1) What were the odds of you hitting the flop AND turn perfectly AND him making his hand on the river? I don't know how to figure them exactly, but I betcha they were more like 400-1 than 4-1. . . . 2) This is a tournament, meaning that if you lost a substantial chunk or even all of your money with this not-even-close-to-marginal hand here, it very well could have cost you your tournament life. What if you just had two pair on the river and didn't turn a lucky boat? Would you have been able to read him for a straight and had the discipline to fold? My guess is, probably not . . . and boom, you'd have been out. In a cash game, I very well might call here myself purely based on pot odds, but not in a tourney; even if this guy had been attacking my BB a lot I'd still be waiting for a much better hand to play back and take a stand, and then I wouldn't just be calling. . . .

That's my opinion, and I'm sticking to it. . . . (Btw, where did you end up finishing in this tourney?)
 
B

Bentheman87

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"Wow . . . you're right, that was VERY lucky; as a matter of fact, it couldn't possibly have gone any better for you. BUT, here's why I still don't agree that the call is correct: 1) What were the odds of you hitting the flop AND turn perfectly AND him making his hand on the river? I don't know how to figure them exactly, but I betcha they were more like 400-1 than 4-1. . . . 2) This is a tournament, meaning that if you lost a substantial chunk or even all of your money with this not-even-close-to-marginal hand here, it very well could have cost you your tournament life. What if you just had two pair on the river and didn't turn a lucky boat? Would you have been able to read him for a straight and had the discipline to fold? My guess is, probably not . . . and boom, you'd have been out. In a cash game, I very well might call here myself purely based on pot odds, but not in a tourney; even if this guy had been attacking my BB a lot I'd still be waiting for a much better hand to play back and take a stand, and then I wouldn't just be calling. . . .

That's my opinion, and I'm sticking to it. . . . (Btw, where did you end up finishing in this tourney?)"

Yea he was very lucky that he made such a strong hand while his opponent made a very strong second best hand. But you can't really say he was "lucky" to win after all 5 cards were dealt, he was about 30% to win preflop which is a pretty big %. Remember though we don't have to flop two pair or trips to continue in the hand postflop. If the flop came something like 10 8 3 and he bet 1/2 pot we could call since we could have the best hand and we have 5 outs.
 
BillyTheBull

BillyTheBull

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Remember though we don't have to flop two pair or trips to continue in the hand postflop. If the flop came something like 10 8 3 and he bet 1/2 pot we could call since we could have the best hand and we have 5 outs.

Ok then . . . if you're making that sort of call every time, I want you to my left in the next tournament, please. ;)
 
F

Flappyf1sh

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Easy fold. Sorry thoughs who said you havethe pot odds to call RUBBISH. you have pot odds to call many hands in poker but many are an easy fold this is one of them. If hes min raising often i wait till i Hold an A or K then reraise to shut him up.
 
burton_boy

burton_boy

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Billy while I can see where you are coming from we both know that I didn't actually have to hit the flop to take down the pot. People are allowed to make a move every now and then, right? ;) Also if he lead out and I hadn't hit I would have folded lickety split, therefore not losing most or all of my stack. BTW I didn't play back until I had a made hand.

That's my opinion, and I'm sticking to it. . . . (Btw, where did you end up finishing in this tourney?)


I actually Bubbled in this lost AA all in pre flop two times in my final 30 minutes. I made another thread https://www.cardschat.com/forum/poker-goals-challenges-wins-46/omfg-aa-loses-2x-aipf-107782/ as I was slightly angry.
 
BillyTheBull

BillyTheBull

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Billy while I can see where you are coming from we both know that I didn't actually have to hit the flop to take down the pot. People are allowed to make a move every now and then, right? ;)

Hey, sure . . . I'm not scolding you or criticizing your play in any way; I'm just telling you what I think would have been the best move here in terms of long-term profitability (since you asked . . .), not withstanding the outcome of this particular instance.

Sorry about the aces getting cracked twice at the end, that sucks. :banghead:
 
AlexeiVronsky

AlexeiVronsky

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I'd tend to call in this situation probably every time. You've got a trash hand but you've got position, you're getting huge odds, and you don't want other people to try to steal your blinds all the time when they see this bet work. Most of the time even if you don't hit he won't have hit either so you can often pick up the pot pretty easily just from the strength of your position. And I do tend to just call then reraise in these kinds of situations regardless of whether I have a real hand or not, just because you'll have position on him throughout the hand.
 
M

marble

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Yes the numbers say call, BUT can be misleading. say you flop AQ3 or KJ9, YOU'RE ahead but you wouldn't know it. my point is that even though you're getting the right price to call, it's not as nearly as important as to what the villain is trying to accomplish with his min raise.

-m
 
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