Bad timing ? or bad move ?

fL4k3

fL4k3

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full tilt poker Game #3424145339: $1 + $0.25 Sit & Go (26164521), Table 1 - 1000/2000 Ante 250 - No Limit Hold'em - 22:55:21 ET - 2007/08/31
Seat 1: IZAHEMI (82,159)
Seat 3: Cdloegrmkas (66,222)
Seat 4: FL4K3 (56,862)
Seat 6: mirandagd56 (7,967)
Seat 7: lionhart33 (56,790)
IZAHEMI antes 250
Cdloegrmkas antes 250
FL4K3 antes 250
mirandagd56 antes 250
lionhart33 antes 250
FL4K3 posts the small blind of 1,000
mirandagd56 posts the big blind of 2,000
The button is in seat #3
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to FL4K3 [Kc Ac]
lionhart33 raises to 6,000
IZAHEMI calls 6,000
Cdloegrmkas folds
FL4K3 calls 5,000
mirandagd56 folds
*** FLOP *** [9s 3c 4c]
FL4K3 checks
lionhart33 bets 10,000
IZAHEMI folds
FL4K3 calls 10,000
*** TURN *** [9s 3c 4c] [8d]
FL4K3 bets 5,000
lionhart33 raises to 40,540, and is all in
FL4K3 calls 35,540
lionhart33 shows [Ad 9d]
FL4K3 shows [Kc Ac]
*** RIVER *** [9s 3c 4c 8d] [Qd]
lionhart33 shows a pair of Nines
FL4K3 shows Ace King high
lionhart33 wins the pot (122,330) with a pair of Nines
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot 122,330 | Rake 0
Board: [9s 3c 4c 8d Qd]
Seat 1: IZAHEMI folded on the Flop
Seat 3: Cdloegrmkas (button) folded before the Flop
Seat 4: FL4K3 (small blind) showed [Kc Ac] and lost with Ace King high
Seat 6: mirandagd56 (big blind) folded before the Flop
Seat 7: lionhart33 showed [Ad 9d] and won (122,330) with a pair of Nines


I had 72 chips left after this hand, LOL
 
PokerProBetZip

PokerProBetZip

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Not the best move.

At this time, you want to play more conservatively than you have the whole tournament. The payouts get bigger as more get out. The 10k Call on the Flop was a good Call. But the 35k All-In on the Turn should have told you something. Think: This guy is betting big, he got to have a hand. I have 1 card left to hit my Flush or make a higher pair. Just gotta lay it down to that big bet.
 
J

joeeagles

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Personally, I don't like the fact you decided to flat call the PF raise with AKs. Being that table is 5 handed, ranges for raising are wider than compared to a full table and with another player already calling the 1st raiser I would shove and try to take down the 16k+ in the pot already. This move will be successful more times than not and if I get called I'm either dominating an eventual caller or flipping at worst.

Some players like to see a flop with AK even if OOP, and I'm fine with that, but I don't like the fact you called his 10k bet on the flop. That was another perfect spot to shove with 2 overcards, a FD and plenty FE. It probably doesn't change the end result because he'll likely call at these levels but from a strategic POV it was played poorly. So was the 5k turn bet and worst yet calling off your last 35k w/o the right odds (2 to 1).

Sorry, I don't mean to be harsh, I usually never am but I hate the way you played this even if it was a horrible suckout. Although I realize that you probably can't change the outcome of this hand (except perhaps if you PF shove), still, there were too many mistakes and the only right thing to do to is point them out for future reference. It's ashame to make the final table of an MTT and blow it with incorrect plays. Hope next time you'll have better luck, for one, and avoid costly errors like this one.
 
smerald

smerald

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This was not a good move, any pair could beat u, why risk all your chips (except 72) on ace high and a draw.
I would have probably folded on the flop.
 
B

bw07507

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Personally, I don't like the fact you decided to flat call the PF raise with AKs. Being that table is 5 handed, ranges for raising are wider than compared to a full table and with another player already calling the 1st raiser I would shove and try to take down the 16k+ in the pot already. This move will be successful more times than not and if I get called I'm either dominating an eventual caller or flipping at worst.

Some players like to see a flop with AK even if OOP, and I'm fine with that, but I don't like the fact you called his 10k bet on the flop. That was another perfect spot to shove with 2 overcards, a FD and plenty FE. It probably doesn't change the end result because he'll likely call at these levels but from a strategic POV it was played poorly. So was the 5k turn bet and worst yet calling off your last 35k w/o the right odds (2 to 1).

Sorry, I don't mean to be harsh, I usually never am but I hate the way you played this even if it was a horrible suckout. Although I realize that you probably can't change the outcome of this hand (except perhaps if you PF shove), still, there were too many mistakes and the only right thing to do to is point them out for future reference. It's ashame to make the final table of an MTT and blow it with incorrect plays. Hope next time you'll have better luck, for one, and avoid costly errors like this one.

Joe hit this one right on the nose
 
blankoblanco

blankoblanco

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I would have probably folded on the flop.

you do realize he had 2 overs and the nut flush draw, right? i'm definitely not folding flop

OP,

a) reraise preflop
b) as played, i'd checkraise all-in on flop. i don't like just calling when you're out of position and your hand is too good to fold. gives you a lot of fold equity and you have good equity even when you get called (which you would have, but we didn't know his hand)
c) as played on the flop, the 5k bet on the turn is kind of goofy, but at the $1 level this can actually slow down passive retards who are too stupid to raise. it's incredibly transparent at higher limits, but here if you think the guy will just call and not charge you to draw, it's honestly not terrible. of course, that's not how it worked out. really checking or shoving as a semibluff are both better without a strong read suggesting differently
d) once he shoves, you're not getting proper odds so fold

edit: basically I agree with joe
 
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GiveUpFishy

GiveUpFishy

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push on the flop he should put u on an overpair but even if he calls u still have at least 9 outs
 
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jeffred1111

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push on the flop he should put u on an overpair but even if he calls u still have at least 9 outs

And are worse than flipping while we could wait for a better spot. When it doesn't hit on the flop, AK becomes a crap hand that may not be crappier than what one person is holding, but against two people who have called a raise preflop, not likely. What can others be holding that they would call with after cold-calling/raising preflop ? Only hands that beat you. Not a sound strategy and a foolish comment for someone searching for answers on where they went wrong.

Reraise preflop, c/c flop (maybe), dump UI on turn.
 
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blankoblanco

blankoblanco

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And are worse than flipping while we could wait for a better spot. When it doesn't hit on the flop, AK becomes a crap hand that may not be crappier than what one person is holding, but against two people who have called a raise preflop, not likely. What can others be holding that they would call with after cold-calling/raising preflop ? Only hands that beat you. Not a sound strategy and a foolish comment for someone searching for answers on where they went wrong.

Reraise preflop, c/c flop (maybe), dump UI on turn.

this is a foolish comment from someone attempting to prove someone else wrong. check-shoving the flop is just unquestionably better than check calling or folding. this is really basic, +EV sklansky/harrington poker
 
GiveUpFishy

GiveUpFishy

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And are worse than flipping while we could wait for a better spot. When it doesn't hit on the flop, AK becomes a crap hand that may not be crappier than what one person is holding, but against two people who have called a raise preflop, not likely. What can others be holding that they would call with after cold-calling/raising preflop ? Only hands that beat you. Not a sound strategy and a foolish comment for someone searching for answers on where they went wrong.

Reraise preflop, c/c flop (maybe), dump UI on turn.

by check calling the flop u give yourself no oppourtunity to win the pot other then hitting your outs and now he thinks your weak and will never fold to aggression on the turn...
ur strategy is was too passive and will not win u the tournament ever..
 
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jeffred1111

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this is a foolish comment from someone attempting to prove someone else wrong. check-shoving the flop is just unquestionably better than check calling or folding. this is really basic, +EV sklansky/harrington poker

As was played you really check/shove this flop. Really? I don't think our fold equity is all that high since I can see someone cold calling with something like 89s or T9s and our line would look very weird, or someone raising with A9s, A4s, A3s, trying to steal etc. If we reraise preflop, not only do we get this garbage out of the way and are ahead of most holdings except pairs, we know that the board is now safe for a c/r all-in. Lots of hands will contain crappy kickers that will pair on such a board.

The c/c flop and dump UI on turn was with the call preflop. We are OOP and have shown no agression preflop so trying to wake up and represent a monster here will not work often enough to be +EV, since even small pairs such as 77,88 or even 66 will call us after investing a few more thousand chips: this is a 1$ SNG where anyone who pairs might call. We have to adjust our play and play our solid holding preflop without trying to get fancy.
 
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jeffred1111

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by check calling the flop u give yourself no oppourtunity to win the pot other then hitting your outs and now he thinks your weak and will never fold to aggression on the turn...
ur strategy is was too passive and will not win u the tournament ever..

And this is why I said to reraise preflop... I wouldn't fold A9 to such a goofy c/r AI by the BB if I had raised preflop and only gotten called, but I would fold preflop to a reraise after being cold-called since my a9 is almost never good or I'm flipping with a big stack.

Not a lot of sets there (33,44 maybe, but then I'm paying off) and I don't think sets would c/r on such a dangerous board. This is Axs way too much and I'm ahead, so why would I fold?
 
blankoblanco

blankoblanco

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there's a huge overlay in the pot of 1/3 of our total stack, + we do in fact have fold equity. yes it's an $1 sng, but in the late stages this can often lead to players being weaker and tighter than they're supposed to be. that aside, the preflop raiser is cbetting on a 9 high flop that looks like it wouldn't have hit anyone.. we so clearly have fold equity against his range and actually we probably have the best hand. we're even ahead of TT-QQ with a huge overlay of dead money. shoving also negates our positional disadvantage

check-calling makes our hand fairly transparent + makes us play out of position + will cause us to not get paid off many of the times we actually do hit. also cuts our odds in half because if we don't hit on the turn we will usually get priced out (which we did, OP just decided to call without odds anyway)

and i already said i agree that it should have been reraised preflop, but as played, check-shove flop is better than check-calling and it's not close
 
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jeffred1111

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I can see where you're coming from but after making such a mistake preflop, I'd hate to commit myself to this pot in what is essentially the dark, since a lot of people will raise UTG with anything to steal he blinds and a lot of people will call with suited connectors, high suited cards, etc. We may very be in front of his range, but we're also deep and it would end our tournament in 5th place while there's a tiny stack at the table if we were to not it. I play cautiously here if I'm not the agressor from the very start.

Since we somewhat have FE (and lots of outs), I can see myself check/shoving, but what if nobody bets and we don't hit on the turn? As played, I would sometimes fold this flop (more than c/c in reflexion) since our preflop mistakes has made the hand very though to play while we are still very deep and in no need to make a move. This is what irks me the most, the fact that we are 25BB+ deep and are shoving on a draw after calling preflop.
 
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