BAD BEAT??? MAYBE NOT

jasondavies

jasondavies

Guest
The reason i say maybe not a bad beat, is because it is a freeroll, although it is pretty late in the freeroll, now surely i didnt mis play this hand, maybe i did, happy to be shown the way, anyway on with the show



Hand Number: 290,978,754
Table Number: 3,975,079
Event Name: $30 FREEROLL (#2642933)MNHB
Event Started: Tuesday March 21st 3:05:01 AM CST 2006 Event Type: BugsysClub Real Money Tournament Event Buy-In: BC Member
Game: No Limit Hold 'em
Level XIV: 300 Ante 1,000/2,000 Blinds (100 Minimum Chip)
Average Stack: 109,333.33 (10,000 starting chips)
Remaining Players: 45 (492 started)
Seat 1 : latasha starts with 117,500
Seat 2 : RedDiggity starts with 388,000
Seat 3 : zackiller starts with 74,400
Seat 4 : ksatter starts with 114,800
Seat 6 : velikana starts with 98,500
Seat 7 : BigQuebos starts with 118,900
Seat 8 : jasondavies starts with 167,900 Seat 9 : szvobodaB starts with 7,900 Seat 10 : goodaled starts with 69,400 Seat 2 : RedDiggity has the dealer button
>>>DEALING HOLE CARDS<<<
jasondavies dealt down :kh::ah:
latasha posts the ante 300
RedDiggity posts the ante 300
zackiller posts the ante 300
ksatter posts the ante 300
velikana posts the ante 300
BigQuebos posts the ante 300
jasondavies posts the ante 300
szvobodaB posts the ante 300
goodaled posts the ante 300
zackiller posts the small blind 1,000
ksatter posts the big blind 2,000
velikana calls 2,000
BigQuebos folds
jasondavies raises 22,000 to 24,000
szvobodaB folds
goodaled folds
latasha folds
RedDiggity folds
zackiller folds
ksatter calls 22,000
velikana calls 22,000
>>>DEALING FLOP<<< :as::5s::10h:
ksatter bets 42,000
velikana folds
jasondavies raises 48,500 to 90,500
ksatter calls 48,500 and is all-in
jasondavies cards were :kh::ah:
ksatter cards were :ac::5h:
>>>DEALING TURN<<< :3d:
>>>DEALING RIVER<<< :ad:
ksatter wins 256,700 with a full house, aces full of fives
>>>SUMMARY<<<
Hand Ended: Tuesday March 21st 5:12:49 AM CST 2006 Total Pot: 256,700
Board: :as::5s::10h::3d::ad:
Seat 1 : latasha lost 300, folded pre-flop Seat 2 : RedDiggity (button) lost 300, folded pre-flop Seat 3 : zackiller (small blind) lost 1,300, folded pre-flop Seat 4 : ksatter (big blind) bet 114,800, won 256,700, net +141,900, showed hand :ac::5h: Seat 6 : velikana lost 24,300, folded on the flop Seat 7 : BigQuebos lost 300, folded pre-flop Seat 8 : jasondavies lost 114,800, showed hand :kh::ah: Seat 9 : szvobodaB lost 300, folded pre-flop Seat 10 : goodaled lost 300, folded pre-flop
 
gord962

gord962

Legend
That's a lot to bet on top pair, is it not??. You had top pair, top kicker, but all-in is a bit hasty. You had to know the other guy had at least an A as well, and could easily have had pocket As or 10s. My advice would be don't get so aggressive on top pair.
 
titans4ever

titans4ever

Legend
I really don't see how the hand would have ended without you doubling him up. You reraise after the flop to put him all-in or him betting it out the after the turn and river. He just got lucky, you could have easily put him on AQ or AJ and had him dominated and not catching. It is just one of those hands.
 
C

colin_147

Guest
The hand is not really a bad beat as such, as you was behind on the flop. But of course, hitting trips would certainly be enough to take down most pots!

Its very difficult to describe the guys play other than foolish. IMO you played the hand perfect - but like you said, it was a freeroll (which could kinda explain this guys play)
 
gord962

gord962

Legend
Yes, you definitely would have been all after the river with trip As and top kicker. I still would have only called after the flop though. Just one of those hands, not much you can do. Obviously you were doing everything right up to that point to make it that far in the free roll.

Great bet pre-flop, the guy should have never called with A-5. You will probably beat this guy the next 15 times if dealt the same cards each time. He got lucky, but that's the name of the game.
 
F

Fish

Rock Star
You should have kept the pot smaller.
Controlling the size of a pot, is a very important concept.

Preflop, you should have raised something smaller, like 10k-12k.
 
Four Dogs

Four Dogs

Legend
Fish said:
You should have kept the pot smaller.
Controlling the size of a pot, is a very important concept.

Preflop, you should have raised something smaller, like 10k-12k.
While I agree that this was a HUGE raise, I disagree that controlling the pot was the issue here. The size of your opening bets serve 2 purposes. 1, to limit the field (maybe take the pot down right there) and 2, to gain information on the caller. Anyone making or responding to a bet this size is representing (I didn't say he has) a huge hand. Certainly, A,5 out of position does not qualify. You hit your TPTK and reraised as you should have. If anyone here, thinks you had enough information to put him on any hand that makes sense other than AA or AK-AJ I'd like to here from them. You were destined to lose this pot, but ksatter is destined to lose many more.
 
jasondavies

jasondavies

Guest
Your probably right, the raise was massive, i got dealt KA hearts again 2 hands later and lost my stack, got pushed all in and he hit 2 pair and the board missed me,
as far as the decsion to put him all in, it was based purely on previous info, yes i knew he had an ace, he had to, or he should never have called that raise, if not it better be KK/QQ, if so im winning so far, he was addicted to betting huge into anyflop, his stack was up n down all day, 3 hands earlier there was AA6 on flop, he went all in, he showed his bluff he had 78suited, so i did these deductions
1. he has an ace and kicker fight begins (THIS IS THE OPTION I CHOSE)
2. he is trying to end this pot now by bluffing the ace hoping i was underpaired


so with the thought that AK was ahead in terms of kicker, i moved him all in, the idea was not to take his chips as such, but to put an end to the hand there and then and send out a signal to the table, "dont try and bully me"

anyway i was wrong
 
gord962

gord962

Legend
If the guy is a cronic bluffer, just be satisfied with calling. You can usually get more of their money that way. If you re-raise a bluffer, they will typically fold, unless they have a really good hand. Yes, in this case he would have ended up all-in by the river, but don't rush him. He could have had nothing and folded, then you would have missed out on the rest of his stack.
 
t1riel

t1riel

Legend
The raise was a little to big prefolp but still, ksatter had no business to call it with Ace-rag. They weren't even suited for crying out loud! Obviously, this ksatter player overvaules the Ace-rag. I feel your pain Jason.
 
B

BgShoesAA

Guest
Yes, and no for me on the bad play/good play evaluation. 22k BUT that only represented 1/7th of his stack. (I am not defending the otherwise bad Ax rag call either just working some of the math out).
You were 71% favorite preflop. He was 23% dog.
Post-flop you were 32% he was 67%.
Turn=you 13% him 86%.
That's the percentages at least.

But, considering it is late in the tournament, and he is just about average stacked, he's looking to get into final table position and take a few chances.

This is where you stop, take a deep breath, and ask yourself "what might he call a raise with", and "gee, he sure is following through for this late in the tourney when players typically tighten up".

I would have put him on the A10 myself, though I ALSO would find it very difficult to lay this hand down too! TPTK heads up is certainly a monster flop so no dig on your play there.

Being that you were in early position too, and he was on the big blind, his call of your utg raise might have been taken as a steal too, considering how large the blinds/antes are.

Imagine if you had monster pocket Kings, same play. Then what would you do after the flop with the ace showing? Lay it down?
This is why I myself would prefer to flop a Kxx where i had a more reasonable expectation of him calling with an ace rag and missing,than flopping an ace top kicker and wondering about the 2p, flush draw, etc.
Also, you gave no mention of his previous play. Loose, tight, maniac, rock? Just sat down at the table or been battling it out for an hour? I know in live tourneys I've been knocked out more times by switching tables, then getting involved in first or second hand with good cards and losing to someone I knew nothing about.

Plus, there's that third player Valikana, calling blind, then a raise utg in first position. That's a definite flashing light going off in my head when limping in after him with a draw. A smaller raise as the other poster said would have limited the field, and gave you more information after the flop, when his post flop monster lead-out bet gives you more information than just someone calling big raise preflop, getting pot-committed, then following through due to pot odds. (AJ, AQ etc.)

In my final couch-professor beard stroking monday quarterbacking analysis, when its this stage of the tourney, and you are facing a caller utg with you next to act on a draw, use much more caution and maybe smaller raises so you can let the hand go if the flop, or the BB's or UTG's actions warrant it.

YES, it WAS a bonehead call for most of us, NO argument there!
YES, he will pay you off handsomely 2 out of 3 times.

BUT, considering that its a freeroll, where any ace rag is a Golden Payday, and your position, try to be more cautious utg. What some see as pricing someone OUT of a pot, donks look at $$ signs and think, "wow, that's a big pot I could win!".
 
jasondavies

jasondavies

Guest
BgShoesAA said:
Yes, and no for me on the bad play/good play evaluation. 22k BUT that only represented 1/7th of his stack. (I am not defending the otherwise bad Ax rag call either just working some of the math out).
You were 71% favorite preflop. He was 23% dog.
Post-flop you were 32% he was 67%.
Turn=you 13% him 86%.
That's the percentages at least.

But, considering it is late in the tournament, and he is just about average stacked, he's looking to get into final table position and take a few chances.

This is where you stop, take a deep breath, and ask yourself "what might he call a raise with", and "gee, he sure is following through for this late in the tourney when players typically tighten up".

I would have put him on the A10 myself, though I ALSO would find it very difficult to lay this hand down too! TPTK heads up is certainly a monster flop so no dig on your play there.

Being that you were in early position too, and he was on the big blind, his call of your utg raise might have been taken as a steal too, considering how large the blinds/antes are.

Imagine if you had monster pocket Kings, same play. Then what would you do after the flop with the ace showing? Lay it down?
This is why I myself would prefer to flop a Kxx where i had a more reasonable expectation of him calling with an ace rag and missing,than flopping an ace top kicker and wondering about the 2p, flush draw, etc.
Also, you gave no mention of his previous play. Loose, tight, maniac, rock? Just sat down at the table or been battling it out for an hour? I know in live tourneys I've been knocked out more times by switching tables, then getting involved in first or second hand with good cards and losing to someone I knew nothing about.

Plus, there's that third player Valikana, calling blind, then a raise utg in first position. That's a definite flashing light going off in my head when limping in after him with a draw. A smaller raise as the other poster said would have limited the field, and gave you more information after the flop, when his post flop monster lead-out bet gives you more information than just someone calling big raise preflop, getting pot-committed, then following through due to pot odds. (AJ, AQ etc.)

In my final couch-professor beard stroking monday quarterbacking analysis, when its this stage of the tourney, and you are facing a caller utg with you next to act on a draw, use much more caution and maybe smaller raises so you can let the hand go if the flop, or the BB's or UTG's actions warrant it.

YES, it WAS a bonehead call for most of us, NO argument there!
YES, he will pay you off handsomely 2 out of 3 times.

BUT, considering that its a freeroll, where any ace rag is a Golden Payday, and your position, try to be more cautious utg. What some see as pricing someone OUT of a pot, donks look at $$ signs and think, "wow, that's a big pot I could win!".

Thank you very much, this is a fantastic and informative analysis of the hand in question, it has changed my game, and thats what its all about, thankyou very much
 
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